Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Game Over - Mafia Victory!

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw I didn't like shadow push on zz there but really struggle to see why she does it as a wolf. Plenty of other short term targets, plenty of time for zz sub to turn to lynchbait. The only gain there is to be able to later say "well I wouldn't do that". Still really think she's town.

[shadowface]

Fwiw I didn't like shadow push on zz there but really struggle to see why she does it as a wolf. Plenty of other short term targets, plenty of time for zz sub to turn to lynchbait. The only gain there is to be able to later say "well I wouldn't do that". Still really think she's town.

It wasn't a push at all. Zoomzip is one of the last people I want to kill today. It was just something that I realized, and wanted to discuss it while Zoomzip's around, with the hope of gaining some insight into his thought process.

[Keirador]

@ sjg if zoom is a 5 that makes keir a 3 not a 2, also how do you get sf1's number? is there a specific distribution of numbers?

No Keirador's a 2. Zoomzip's action would have been at 5 pull and he's now at 3 pull. 5-3=2 which is Keirador's number. There are two of each number but we only have 1 3 and 1 4 so far so shadowfriend could be either. Happymeal's the other one.

Dodgy, what happened to those thoughts on the game you were gonna post yesterday?

gotcha. my bad.

However i dont see anywhere in the rules that state there are 2 of each number? Have i missed something or is this another time where sjg talks about things as fact when they are just an assumption? or do you know something we dont? i was under the impression the numbers were random Between 1-5?

thoughts will have to wait til the morning

The above quotes are from an exchange I had with dodgy earlier today about the distribution of numbers in the thread. At this point I'd guessed shadowfriend's number based on a faulty assumption that, with 10 players and 5 numbers, there were two of each number in the game.

I kinda want to discuss dodgy's response to it as it's the only potentially indicative moment I can find on him. His confusion around the topic in the thread sounds to me, currently, more like a townie who didn't know the numbers distribution and thought he'd caught a potential slip rather than someone who knew all the numbers and knew I was wrong on the topic.

I'm trying to work out if faking that is within dodgy's range as Mafia. It's been a while since I played with dodgy as Mafia.

Interesting catch. The last/only time I've been mafia with dodgy was 3.5 years ago (!) in sjg's Immunity Idol, and that player probably did not have this reaction in his scum range.

[mhsmith0]

If anyone wants to pick the brain of the about to be conftown before day end, let me know.

Remember that the Smith Strategy

sjg and ZZ push each other (should have zero net effect);
dodgy and Telleo PULL each other (gets both closer to net zero, while pushing puts them both at +3 or -3)
Jordan and Keirador push each other (should have net zero effect)
crunkus and shadowfriend push each other (crunkus becomes 1 net push, SF back to zero)

is the town plan for N2, and violators should be policy lynched (you can afford to policy lynch any and all cheats at this point, regardless of their complaints, because you have a bunch of potential mislynches to spare, and compliance with town directives is ESSENTIAL).

Also...

SF and ZZ/replacement are never lynch

Telleo is very probably town given the happymeal interactions and associatives

Keirador and dodgy are PROBABLY people you won't have to lynch (but are more or less null on their own... and yes this is me saying that this isn't a particularly villagery village *shrugs*)

crunkus and sjg have various reasons to be suspicious of but are probably both town because...

Jordan is probably the actual scum here


Also, while it's probably just Jordan, DO NOT let D3 be "all about jordan" day (unless he gets mechanically caught tonight of course)

Also make sure to plan ahead for mechanics; if somehow you get close to endgame, remember NOT to create any scenarios where 3v1 and a mislynch can lead to a night kill and endgame - if that means policy mislynching someone who can potentially create mischief due to a high power number, so be it (also note that if you have TWO people with high power numbers left, try to create a "final night" situation where they MUST push/pull each other or both die, though note that this may require a bit of planning ahead)

[Jordan767]

Here and will be until deadline.

I confirm that I'll push Keir.

I want to take a quick look at sjg in the next 2 hours. Also here to answer quick questions.

Bullet point for me why SF and ZZ are never lynch.

Smith, quick thought exercise. Tomorrow, if I'm not lynched (though it looks like I might be), who should be? When you answer this put aside any issues you have with crunkus and look at literally anything else. I've seen crunkus get frustrated like this when people get frustrated by his push on them before and I believe it to not be alignment indicative.

There are sone scummy things I see in smith's play at the moment but I'm going to ignore those since he's going to get lynched anyway.

[Jordan767]

Re
viewtopic.php?f=306&t=54506&start=1330#p889545

I'm being lynched, so it literally doesn't matter what I have to say in defense of myself.

Acknowledged.

Your "scum motivation" point about my plan was always bad. I had a plan you did not like. That is not scummy unless there was clear evidence that said plan was much worse for town (it wasn't) or that I was trying to strongarm it through (obviously false) or that I was just trying to hide out in mechanics discussion (also fairly obviously false).

I just didn't get why you were concerned about a plan you'd advocated so strongly. I now get that it will eventually push us over the edge.

If I was null that I was null. You literally just argued that if I was null then I am scummy. MAYBE this is a terribly worded argument for my having actively lurked (which I didn't do, and which certainly isn't null). You want a null day? Look at keirador, who made some decent points here and there but hasn't even been slightly close to obvtown. There's a day that's nice and null. Or look at crunkus, who's chosen to spend the day (just as you have) doing basically nothing but talking about me and ignoring literally anything else he could talk about. Except it SEEMS like he actually believes what he's saying. Again, null. Those are the arts of thins I'm talking about (inb4 someone bitches about me being insufficently clear again)

I guess what I was saying is that you were actively lurking very loudly for a long time. At least that was my interpretation.

The point about sheeping was that all of your own arguments were pretty transparently bad. So the only substantive stuff was sheeped. That's scum-indicative.

I guess. But don't forget I'm looking at multiple strong players (Crunkus, sjg, Keir to an extent), at least some of whom must be town, who are all saying these things about you.

The idea that I shouldn't be in the final three is a silly point by whoever made it first, and a sketchy thing to sheep.

That was Crunkus. It wasn't a big point for me.

viewtopic.php?f=306&t=54506&start=1330#p889545
I agree you're trying, I just think you're trying for scum wincon. If Im wrong, well, I'm not any more wrong than most of the board (yourself included) has been about me.
I'm also not sure what points I could be among that are NOT relevant to your case on me since that's where you've chosen to spend your time.
I will say that you're not alone in claiming to be unable to understand what I'm saying. I believe it's insincere on your part, but doubtless those who think I've been unclear to them too can weigh in on tnat one.
I also don't really want to be a big jerk about it... but you really haven't been asked very many questions by me. If it took you mine than fifteen minutes to find them you're doing it very wrong - maybe you should try the ISO feature from page one that i provided to all?

I think this may be related to me being kinda new to this and not having that kind of thread/tab management down yet. That and browsing on multiple platforms.

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Your answers have been consistently unsatisfactory. I've been clear and explicit as to where I've found them so. If it's that hard to understand what I'm saying and why I'm unsatisfied, I honestly don't kniw what is to say. Perhaps you'll find sympathy in my critics.

I think clear and explicit is an overstatement.

posting.php?mode=reply&f=306&t=54506#pr889549

Otherwise, if you have nothing productive to say about people other than me, just go away. Please. You're not helping anything, REGARDLESS OF MY ALIGNMENT.

Explanation literally right there. Is it offensive? Maybe. Is it INNACURATE? Am I factually incorrect when I say that it seemed that he had nothing productive to say? And that his choice to keep wallposting despite this was in fact shitting up the thread? Ignore whether it was nice (crunkus is in partuclar a proponent of "it's just a game" and "grow a thick skin" so I'm unwilling to feel bad about saying something that was both mean [but NOT a personal attack] and accurate). Was it TRUE? Because if it was? Then by crunkus standards it should damn well be fine to say.

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Also reiterating the same goddamn point. He was choosing to shit up the thread and stifle what had the potential to be productive discussion. That was a choice he made and I was telling him to stop. I had every right to do so.

This whole engagement between you and Crunkus is something I just want to ignore as much as possible to be honest. I hate opening the thread and I go to read things and they end up being two players shouting at each other.

viewtopic.php?f=306&t=54506&start=1330#p889551
Did I discuss it before? Beats me. Does that invalidate it as a point of suspicion?
Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe you wanted to see if you could get a bad plan through. Note "minor issue" which I think is fair for that situation.
I didn't know if you were joking, but I still think it's mildly scum-indiciative even if you were.
These were all pretty minor points, though; mainly I was doing it for the record (since, once again, I'm gonna die soon).

Just wondering why they weren't notable issues until you had a scumread on me, and then they come up out of nowhere to strengthen the read. Strikes me that the read could be manufactured. I don't know.

[mhsmith0]

So Jordan, I literally just gave a reads list, which means that you basically have an answer of "who if not jordan", i.e. crunkus and sjg. You asking a question where I literally just provided the information you needed to get it answered makes me concerned that you're simply intentionally not paying attention to what is being said, and that you are choosing to make the points that you want to make regardless of whether they're appropriate. It's conceivable that this is a sloppy town process instead of a sloppy scum one, but you're basically reinforcing my read at this point.

That said, I'll answer the question you put to me in a bit more detail, and leave it for the record as to what people want to do with it:

I agree that crunkus can get super frustrated as town, but I also keep getting the sense that he may very well be playing it up explicitly for the fact that people might be town-reading him for it. I don't THINK that is the case, but there's a narrative where scum!crunkus at least potentially fits that I don't have anything close to firm reason to dismiss. I never got around to comparing crunkus's day 3 push on soah from fruit salad ( http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... alad-Mafia ) to how things went down this game, but perhaps someone will be motivated to do the research and see if it rings as comparable or not.

sjg is another one where I think there are reasons to think he's town, but at the same time, you can reasonably construct a game state where it fits that he's scum. In particular, I struggle to see why he was that demotivated by someone he considered reasonably likely scum (me) pushing back on his points about SF. i feel like a normal town process would be to feel MORE like engaging there rather than less. OTOH, i feel like there are a lot of people who have, to say the least, not been engaging in normal and healthy town processes this game day, so while IMO it obviously COULD fit, I don't know that it's any kind of solid evidence to actually suggest that it necessarily DOES fit.

dodgy has basically been doing nothing, which fits a plausible scum narrative of effectively giving up on the game without technically doing anything, but that's a pretty weak case. sjg made points about dodgy that may be fair, I haven't taken the time to really think them through and would prefer if the people who are going to live evaluate them anyway.

Keirador has here and there had town-pingy kinds of posts, but I also thought that his treatment of my push on you around the time he voted me was kind of lazy (dismissing it as OMGUS instead of critically engaging with it seemed strange, and I have no actual understanding of his vote logic whereby town!me would have been likelier to push on the people that he listed - it seemed more like he was saying that scum!me would have pushed jordan, while ignoring that town!me had reason to do so as well, which was a sketchy process IMO). Overall i don't think it's him, but I don't have strong reason (other than there being more suspcious people around) to rule it out.

I'd be exceptionally surprised if it was Telleo, ZZ/replacement, and especially SF1.

[Jordan767]

See? Telleo made the same interpretation I did. One of us, max, could be scum.

You get why "well telleo did it too" is a poor defense, right?

You were scumreading me for interpretations like that one.

I was a. curious why you didn't have the same problem with Telleo and b. saying that why are you scumreading me for this when it's definitely possible for a townie to have that reaction.

[Jordan767]

I was aware of the reads list. I was just looking for a little more detail.

This strikes me as one of Crunkus' more-frustrated games (I've read a couple of games in full and a veritable shitton of AARs) and I think on the whole he tends to get more frustrated as town than as scum. So if anything he should be looking towny for this instead of scummy IMO. Would appreciate clarification on this point from someone who's played with him before instead of just read it.

I'm asking for the quick version of WHY you'd be surprised if it were SF, ZZ, or Telleo.

[mhsmith0]

...
I guess what I was saying is that you were actively lurking very loudly for a long time. At least that was my interpretation.

active lurking isn't null though. i was making a point and you seemingly chose to turn it into the point that you wanted me to have made, and then addressed that. it seems to be a pattern, and a concerning one. obviously it's possible that it's just communication issues, but the evidence is pretty suggestive IMO.

I guess. But don't forget I'm looking at multiple strong players (Crunkus, sjg, Keir to an extent), at least some of whom must be town, who are all saying these things about you.

yes, but I know I'm town, and someone sheeping arguments is generally more suspicious than someone making the arguments in the first place.
your sheeping of the utterly ridiculous "we can't let smith into final 3, so we have to lynch him RIGHT NOW in the final 9" line of argument was especially suspicious, because it was transparently terrible reasoning that you were happy to hop on to. I'll admit you weren't the only one (I forget who said it first and who just sheeped), but you were one of the sheeps there, and it was both bad and scummy

That was Crunkus. It wasn't a big point for me.

you still sheeped it tho (if not, and I'm just misremembering, feel free to look it up tonight and demonstrate it tomorrow)

I think this may be related to me being kinda new to this and not having that kind of thread/tab management down yet. That and browsing on multiple platforms.

That may be the case, and it may be scum!you making excuses. I really don't have any way to know you're telling the truth here.

I think clear and explicit is an overstatement.

I disagree but obviously my opinion on the matter is unpopular

This whole engagement between you and Crunkus is something I just want to ignore as much as possible to be honest. I hate opening the thread and I go to read things and they end up being two players shouting at each other.

I agree. I tried to disengage, he refused to. I tried to talk about other topics, he shut me down. I tried to explain reasoning on other people, he proclaimed that I must be scum trying to save myself, and made numerous wall posts about how my actions were basically terrible... but only if I was town (which since I AM town was not exactly pleasant reading), etc etc etc. Perhaps when i die condude will tell me that I'm full of shit on this, and owe crunkus an apology for my conduct. But I don't think i do. I feel like I have made an extraordinary effort to avoid being toxic despite my flagrantly obvious unhappiness, and if you compare me to what many of the poeple who have gotten into extended back and forths with him have done in various other games that got unpleasant, i think you'll find that to be the case. I don't actually expect you or anyone else to actually bother to do this, but that's my take and I feel that my conduct in this game, while clearly not optimal, was nothing like what it's been made out to be, and I don't consider my conduct to be particularly shameful.

I also, for what it's worth, find it utterly unpleasant for people to be spending time while I am still alive essentially blaming me for my own mislynch. I find it even more unpleasant that, having actually raised this point (multiple times!) that it still happens. Perhaps this is simply something where I failed to be clear enough on what I was saying. Perhaps it is simply my overreaction to it.

Just wondering why they weren't notable issues until you had a scumread on me, and then they come up out of nowhere to strengthen the read. Strikes me that the read could be manufactured. I don't know.

IIRC they were points that I raised well after it was apparent that I was going to die and I was basically transitioning into "leave a legacy" mode. Perhaps I am misremembering this, though. I'll admit the possibility.