Mafia CLVI: Charity Mafia: -- Pure of Heart Win!

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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby condude1 » 10 Dec 2016, 22:11

And BTW, I'm at my computer, but studying. That means I'll check in once in a while but am unable to engage in anything particularly time consuming. Just as a PSA.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Harb » 10 Dec 2016, 22:22

condude1 wrote:Sjg: That's one reason that my vote is still on Justy. I don't think that he sincerely believes that proposing a good plan is town-indicative. I know, as mafia, I next to never try pushing through bad plans, and will support a good plan if possible. As scum I might allow a poor plan to pass, but rarely would I push for the same. I think Justy has played enough mafia, especially with you, to know that proposing a good plan does not make you town.


Curious about this condude. Sjg, you a bit as well. Didn't proposing/pushing the lynch the Anointed plan get you and HM a pretty solid amount of Town cred in Fable? Which turned out to be justified?

PSA: the time I have for posting today appears to be while I'm standing in line for glasses at costco. I'll try my best to contribute as I can
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 10 Dec 2016, 22:24

So, looking at the candidates... we have condude, Telleo and Thingy on Two Votes and we have justy on one vote...

I'm going to move off of condude for now. I get his explanation and the reason for my vote has largely been squashed here.

I also currently see no real reason to vote for Telleo. She's working hard and investigating well so far. The case on her is largely that she's dropping some lines of inquiry... which to be honest is something that everyone does and that I simply don't really think is indicative of anything.

That leaves me with Thingy and justy for votes...

I still have issues with justy. I don't think his explanation is ridiculous... but the whole incident surrounding his townread on me for proposing a town positive plan is just weird... it definitely fits into the things I would expect a Mafia to say about a town sjg.

Then we have Thingy (go back to re-read Harb's engagement with Thingy...)
The main point against Thingy seems to be that he changed his reasons for opposing the plan when asked to expand on his original objection... to be honest this seems pretty similar to my early condude vote and it doesn't really convince me to vote for Thingy at this stage.

Just read Telleo's Thingy case... and it's more convincing to me actually. However:
His reasons for suspecting me... is his narrative that ridiculous, namely that, from his perspective, I'm a Mafia setting up a future mislynch on him? I'm not sure that that's a ridiculous position for a town Thingy to hold in that situation.
I think I also vaguely recall that Thingy was someone who massively emphasised data from which players could be held accountable when he was Mafia in the past... again not sure this is particularly indicative.
Him volunteering for a plan he'd opposed in the thread... far more interesting but I don't remember this happening. I'll re-read Thingy in a second to go over this issue. Re-read him and I don't see him volunteering for any plan he opposed in the thread, can you quote him doing that?
The not much scumhunting... fits with what I remember from Thingy in the past... he always was relatively tough to read...

Overall... justy for now. The points on Thingy so far just aren't really impressing me much... I've not seen anything yet which I feel is particularly indicative with regards to Thingy.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby justy » 10 Dec 2016, 22:25

condude1 wrote:Both Telleo and Keirador had the same, reaction, namely "How do you know it's 7:2? SCUMSLIP!" Their reactions were short, and to the point, and I do believe they were in similar situations, and keirador hadn't seen Telleo's post when he voted. Both of them had the certain bloodlust in their posts that I'd expect from townies finding a scumslip, and neither post was particularly polished. I don't think either post had much of an element of critical analysis beyond "Gotcha". Justy, on the other hand, took the time to make a rather well presented case based on Sjg missing a word in his sentence. The whole point is that I don't see a townie who took the time to analyze the scumslip coming to the conclusion that Justy did.


So you don't think that Sjg's slip wasn't good target for pre-meditated D1 vote five pages into game? Especially when the thread was mostly about mechanics talk before that? If that's so, there's not much I can do to make you think otherwise. But I'm still having difficulties to believe you'd honestly hold that position, especially as you've made light D1 votes yourself as town (e.g. your lurker vote in True Love.


condude1 wrote:So, that's the start of the read. Later, justy unvotes. Between those times, very little had developed on his points Re: Sjg. At the same time, people were trickling in saying that they disagreed with the case. My point here is that he's voting based on what he thinks people will buy, rather than whether his target is likely to be scum. Of course, I still need to reread that to see whether the impression was accurate, but I made the vote thinking that the momentum had shifted.


Can you think of a situation where I have backed away from weak vote because others have been stating their disagreement? I don't think that's my MO as scum. I usually stick to my bad vote as scum, and don't think it has been particularly difficult thing to do. I could keep on arguing with Sjg about how him not using condidtionals could be coming from scum place, and as I don't know if it does, I just decide to keep on voting him. I've got away with that before as scum, probably because I've don it as town as well. In fact, both the quick vote and quick unvote are part of me trying to change my playing style based on recommendations I've been given. We'll see how it works out.

To summarize, as scum I don't unvote if it seems like town doesn't buy my vote. I hang onto my vote. So far it has worked, probably because my tendency to make bad votes as town as well.


condude1 wrote:So, of the four people I'm comparing, Justy comes out the scummiest and I vote him.

Justy's since responded to my case by OMGUS voting me, and using exactly the reasoning I used against him against me.

Sjg: A big part of my issue with him is centered around the fact that he had the time to think through his vote on you, yet he came to the same conclusion that the hasty votes did, which I think is fundamentally flawed. Justy's lack of engagement was around the unvote.


Had to google omgus vote. Perhaps there's some truth in calling my vote omgus vote, but my reasoning isn't exactly the same that your reasoning is.

I vote you because:

a) you don't seem to be honest with your expectations for early game vote even though you have tendency to make weak/light early game votes.
b) unlike for example Telleo or sjg, you don't seem to be interested in learning more about my thinking but instead making arguments that support your vote. So instead of seeking truth, you seek your D1 vote. Nothing wrong in voting, we have to vote someone. But you might try to learn something while you're at it, instead of just adamantly defending your vote.

I remember Telleo asking me later why I vote Condude, who has been talking about his vote, instead of Thyrfing who just voted me. The reason is that I read Thyrfing's vote as typical D1 vote, which intended to make me talk more. Condude instead seems to be someone who tries to make his vote sound better than it is, and also has expectations for my town game he himself as town don't always meet.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Harb » 10 Dec 2016, 22:25

Found thyrfing's responses reasonable. Not sure where that leaves me. Telleo's thyrfing issues didn't resonate strongly. Need to look at them more closely.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 10 Dec 2016, 22:27

Harb wrote:
condude1 wrote:Sjg: That's one reason that my vote is still on Justy. I don't think that he sincerely believes that proposing a good plan is town-indicative. I know, as mafia, I next to never try pushing through bad plans, and will support a good plan if possible. As scum I might allow a poor plan to pass, but rarely would I push for the same. I think Justy has played enough mafia, especially with you, to know that proposing a good plan does not make you town.


Curious about this condude. Sjg, you a bit as well. Didn't proposing/pushing the lynch the Anointed plan get you and HM a pretty solid amount of Town cred in Fable? Which turned out to be justified?

Different scenarios though... the Anointed plan directly led to the death of a Mafia... the vig plan doesn't do that. The benefits to the town of the Anointed plan were significantly greater than those of the Vig Plan. Moreover, happymeal and condude made sure that plan went ahead even through the initial opposition to the plan. They could have easily just let the idea slip through the cracks in that scenario. The initial agreements to my plan makes it harder for me to do that here, today it wasn't me against the town while it was them against the town there though.

PPE: Not massively fond of my justy vote Harb, I'd definitely listen to another alternative candidate.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby condude1 » 10 Dec 2016, 22:28

Harb wrote:
condude1 wrote:Sjg: That's one reason that my vote is still on Justy. I don't think that he sincerely believes that proposing a good plan is town-indicative. I know, as mafia, I next to never try pushing through bad plans, and will support a good plan if possible. As scum I might allow a poor plan to pass, but rarely would I push for the same. I think Justy has played enough mafia, especially with you, to know that proposing a good plan does not make you town.


Curious about this condude. Sjg, you a bit as well. Didn't proposing/pushing the lynch the Anointed plan get you and HM a pretty solid amount of Town cred in Fable? Which turned out to be justified?

PSA: the time I have for posting today appears to be while I'm standing in line for glasses at costco. I'll try my best to contribute as I can


There's a huge difference here. Had Playa turned up town, I don't think either of us deserved that cred. It was, to my knowledge, based on the fact that not only was our plan pro-town, but also directly led to the death of a mafia, who may well have survived the day had I not brought that up. Had the plan just been good, I don't doubt I'd have taken some heat the next day.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Harb » 10 Dec 2016, 22:30

To con and sjg: that credit happened D1. Remember it's WHY the condude momentum shifted. Pre playa reveal. The fact hat playa ended up scum solidified the cred, but it was definitely he plan itself that crated it.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby condude1 » 10 Dec 2016, 22:31

Harb wrote:To con and sjg: that credit happened D1. Remember it's WHY the condude momentum shifted. Pre playa reveal. The fact hat playa ended up scum solidified the cred, but it was definitely he plan itself that crated it.


I disagree here. The plan was good, so we followed it. I don't think I'd gained cred per se at that point, just gave you guys a better lynch. D2 I actually reaped the rewards of that cred.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 10 Dec 2016, 22:32

Thyrfing wrote:Ok, I can see the benefits of a vig reveal now. Still sitting on the fence with regards to that (in that I can't see definite unbalancing reasons for doing it nor for opposing it...)

Then, when you asked again about your plan I went and reread your plan thanks to the link you gave. I had totally misunderstood it and thought it was more in the lines of condude's plan. Also, your own comment about roles pointing to townies right at the end of the post made me think more about this aspect, so it's easy to understand that after rereading the plan my thoughts where directed there. And still not sold on that. If I'm a blocker and in the target scumread group, I will be targeting someone that is likely going to end up blocking a townread. Does that make any sense or I haven't understood the mechanics yet? :roll:
In terms of accountability, all it does is make people choose whether they want their powers directed at townies or at scum... so I must admit it's not much of an issue here.

Also I am interested in knowing why giving now a different reason is such an issue for you, but you didn't seem to have a problem with that during sjg's case on condude, based on exactly the same reasoning.

As I said more in later, I'm still not caught up.. just a couple of quick thoughts for now.


Yo, what do you think of my plan?

@everyone

Could you give me a run down of what you think of the plan I made by modifying others'?:

Happymeal wrote:Oh wait, I made a mistake with that plan. Alright, revised plan:

We vote two people the most townie. Town A will use all the abilities granted to him on the most scummy player. Town B will be targeted by the other group and then use the abilities granted to him on whoever he wants to. Policy shot, if we have one will be targeted by town B and vig will shoot him while doc will use his ability to protect either Town A or B. If we don't have a policy lynch, doc and vig will use their powers to end target most scummy. That means they will target Town A.

What do you guys think? This neutralizes almost all effects of the night game while giving us the most control without revealing people.


So town collectively vote a townie A and townie B. Town also nominate a Scummy A and Scummy B after already lynching. If we want a policy shot, then we use the vig to do that. If we don't, we have doc and vig target townie A and townie a target scummy A. Townie B will target Scummy B or policy shot man. Well, I don't think we even need to kill policy shot because we can find his alignment if townie B gets cop powers.

Because of this, our scummiest overall reads will be targeted by the cop and we don't have to worry about it as much. The vig gets controlled and the doctor isn't completely wasted because he will be saving a cleared town or an actual mafia member. Also, it's really difficult to track back to the cop in this scenario because we'll have two separate groups.
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