Mafia CLVI: Charity Mafia: -- Pure of Heart Win!

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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Keirador » 10 Dec 2016, 08:13

Politer drunk Keirador
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Keirador » 10 Dec 2016, 08:21

condude1 wrote:I just had an idea, how's this plan:?

We agree on who's player A, B, C, and D before EOD.

Player A gets all the anti-town and debuffing roles to use.
Player B gets all the investigative roles to use (cop, rolecop etc.).
Player C gets all protective and buffing roles.
Player D gets all blocking roles.

Player C targets Player B. Player D targets play A. Players A and B target people of their choosing today and reveal who they targeted tomorrow, with reasons. We compile all the information these 4 players were given, and hopefully use it to our advantage tomorrow.

Pros: We get full information from our investigative roles.
We neutralize most, if not all, of the anti-town roles (either the player hit by them gets shot by the vig, or they're all blocked).
We maximize the synergies from our investigative roles with buffs available.
If someone outside of these players is given any feedback, we know mafia are going off the reservation, and can hopefully pinpoint which roles they have.

Cons: The doctor's tied down, giving mafia free reign to kill someone. OTOH, we won't lose any information from their kill.
Mafia blocker or busdriver can cause serious problems. However, if, for example, the investigator gets blocked, we know that the mafia have a blocking role.

This is still in draft format, so if anyone has any changes they want to make, please suggest them!


I like it.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Keirador » 10 Dec 2016, 08:30

Apropos of nothing, if you can't appreciate early Joanna Newsom because of how awful her voice is, I honestly feel like you're missing out. She is powering me through this read. In any fair world she would be our Poet Laureate.

Peach Plum Pear, Sadie, Emily, Monkey & Bear. Start there friends. And yes, her voice is the worst, but her harp is the best. And her lyrics are award-worthy.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Keirador » 10 Dec 2016, 08:39

Harb wrote:
sjg11 wrote:The issue with this is that I'm unsure on whether I'm getting that impression because of the early vote or whether there's more to that impression than that. And, to be honest, I buy his explanation for the earlier vote than usual.

I'm not sure to what extent my opinion is flavoured by the vote.

Moreover, I welcome justy becoming more self assured. He's a good player and I'd definitely like to see him pushing things more and being more self-assured in these games.


Part of the reason I bring this is up is that justy HAS been more self assured in the past, but as scum. I'll let Keir weigh in here as well, since he had a good long experience with justy scum.

I'm surprised sjg needs my input here, as he was an active participant in Night Vale. His first outing playing mafia at all, he was scum and he defied everything I believed about new scum. He was kinetic, accusatory, probing, and had no obvious interest in making friends. I initially STRONGLY townread him for this. I only caught him due to his scumchum's strained relations with him.

My understanding is that justy is. . . well, like me. More comfortable in a perfomative role than an investigatory role. When it comes to justy, I have come to associate conviction with scumminess, and confusion with towniness.


Harb wrote:Speaking of Keir...

Yes, you're right. We both gift a power to our target as well as do unto them whatever power was gifted to us.

Yes, you're right that the source of the powers staying hidden is the big advantage we are offered by this setup. The control mechanisms being discussed I think are mostly surrounding the vig, which seems to be of particular concern. (this is aside from my own thinking that absent misdirection a general reveal would be useful. But that's more theory anyway, not something I'm advocating.)

No, you're definitely NOT the only one assuming there's some sort of misdirection role out there.

Thanks.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Keirador » 10 Dec 2016, 08:43

Harb wrote:
Keirador wrote:Uhh, what? Not "assuming this game starts at 7:2," or "if this game starts at 7:2," just "This game starts at 7:2?"

sjg11


Wait for it wait for it...


Oh man I just made a music recommendation AND IT WASN'T EVEN HAMILTON.

Truly if you're not listening to Hamilton you're doing yourself a disservice.


More relevantly, I'm not sure how to take it that several other players noticed that same "slip" I did. I'm not crazy for having seen it; there's something there. But for now I've lynched sjg enough times for things I saw as incontrovertible slips that I'm willing to contemplate reprieve.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 10 Dec 2016, 08:45

Keirador wrote:Apropos of nothing, if you can't appreciate early Joanna Newsom because of how awful her voice is, I honestly feel like you're missing out. She is powering me through this read. In any fair world she would be our Poet Laureate.

Peach Plum Pear, Sadie, Emily, Monkey & Bear. Start there friends. And yes, her voice is the worst, but her harp is the best. And her lyrics are award-worthy.



Joanna Newsom is average at best. She has a huge following which is no surprise (a lot of people like to look cool) and is critically acclaimed, but it's not that her vocals are necessarily bad, but everything she does is not good. From lyricism to instrumentation to singing. Nothing I can particularly find appealing.

And Isaac Brock is greatest lyricist to have ever lived. Case closed.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 10 Dec 2016, 08:50

Also, I just recognized something. Assuming we get our worse case scenario tomorrow of 4 - 2 where we have one dead townie from mislynch, one dead townie from vig mis-shot, and one dead townie from mafia kill, and we still have our vig alive, then we technically get two "lynches". We have one from the lynch and one from the vig shot at night. I mean, it's a bad scenario, but there is a silver lining to it.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Keirador » 10 Dec 2016, 08:56

sjg11 wrote:Keirador's pretty much just voted and run without really engaging back with me.

Dude eat a crumple-horned snorkack. Or an erumpent, your choice. I do not desire to bring up any kind of GM interaction, but you're forcing my hand here. I was a reserve. The Sign-Up Thread said this game wouldn't start until after Fable was over, and my reserve activation PM didn't include a start time at all, so I joined up assuming this game would start AFTER Fable was over, which would have been much better for my timetable. I was also told that starting this game early, before Fable was finished, was specifically on the recommendation of you, sjg11. So this is pretty churlish. If our GM is to be believed, you are directly responsible for me not being around as much as I'd like. So I don't love the characterization of me "voting and running." I kinda think we know each other better than that.
Last edited by Keirador on 10 Dec 2016, 08:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 10 Dec 2016, 08:56

justy wrote:
This is quite a good point. IF Sjg wanted to give his first ratio post a contemplative tone to conceal him knowing the ratio, my case isn't valid. But there's another explanation, isn't there? Sjg could be faking vig/nk analysis in thread after already discussing it with his scum chum. Or he could really be contemplating the implications of 7-2 ratio, not the ratio itself. The third explanation seems to be the one Sjg himself is offering.


My understanding of your argument(s) here about sjg's post is that in his condude post he was contemplative, but a post that happens shortly before that is a very aggressive stance on the amount of players. As for his vig/nk discussion, he doesn't really have to fake it. Everyone is talking about it, it's pretty simple to just say "yes" or "no" and move on to other things. People are doing the talking so basically you're saying his aggressive "I'm right"/"definitive" type play changes immediately to contemplation? Would you always consider that the way a mafia plays, especially since the pressure was not on him at the time? This isn't mean to defend him, but I want a clear impression from you from how sjg has played the game up to that point. You're saying a lot of things that don't necessarily agree with one another.'

FOR @EVERYONE

Could you run down your scum reads for me? Town reads too if possible. There's been a lot of discussion about what to do mechanically, but not enough read wise I think. I don't want the mechanical aspects to outshine the other, probably more important, part of the game.

My list as of now from scummiest to least scummies (as of page 16)t:

Telleo
Justy
Condude1 (sjg and condude could be interchangeable)
SJG11
Keirador
Harb

Possible policy shots/lynches:

Fuddin



I know thingy posted on this page, but I have yet to read it so I haven't put him inside the list yet.

Thyrfing wrote:Yes, not easy. But not implausible either. It like about 1/7th chance. My worries is sometimes these things are taken then as solid data when there's a lot of stuff that can happen to break the mechanics up, especially when we know some people are probably lying about what they do.


I'm not certain why you're so worried about data during the night right now. Given the way the game is structured mechanically, I see our data as rather small no matter how lucky we get. A doctor could save someone for ex., but who is to say that his target even receives notification of it? On top of that, who's to say that our ability to trust the night reports even matters? There is so much mechanical aspects to this game that it's almost impossible to receive valid data. I think it's best to use the night as safely as possible for the town. I don't think revealing is a good idea at this point, but I think we should at least take the more reliable/safe stance on this one. It's quite the possibility to head into a Lynch right or lose day 2 scenario and a lot of town members have been focused on the mechanics, making our reads probably not as strong as we want them to be.

Thyrfing wrote:
I am normally opposed to controlling roles because it takes the responsibility away from people using them. You won't be able to ask them why they did this or that because the answer will be "Town agreed on that".

I can see the value in trying to avoid a vig kill though... But why are we assuming the whole time there's even a vig?
And, although I myself said scum can control the target of a kill, do we really think it makes such a difference whether the vig is town or scum in terms of game-balance? I mean, you see implausible for ZZ to have a scum vig here but you are completely fine with a town vig with twisted mechanics and don't think it's imbalanced?


I don't comprehend how these game mechanics allow responsibility to be given to people in the first place. Don't you think that responsibility is diminished when people aren't actually controlling who their powers are executed upon? You could say "hey, why did you kill this man vig?", he would say "I didn't target him, the other guy did". You literally need everyone to reveal targets in order for this sort of thinking of responsibility to actually be functional

Also, what's with the whole "scum control their kills" thing? How do we know that?
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 10 Dec 2016, 09:01

Harb wrote:Telleo, since you're around I wanted to grab a response from you real quick on your thoughts on my grouping idea.

Do you think the doc being forced to target a scum read is a bad thing? I don't. Seems to me if the Doc gives their power to scum, and that scum is also committing the NK, we get a save. I get what you're saying about informational roles, cause then scum get the info potentially.


I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Isn't it quite possible that the scum targets the other scum? On top of that, who's to say the doctor actually functions in a manner we expect it to. I don't know much about variants on doctors, but I do know that these mechanic oriented games tend to through in twists rather than just be straight forward. I don't think your idea is bad, but I'm wondering if there are other things to consider.
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