Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby jay65536 » 31 May 2018, 19:16

Well, there's that, plus the fact that I think solo-throwing doesn't happen THAT often even in draw-based systems. The tendency is to just vote yourself out most of the time, if the big powers are asking you to.
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 31 May 2018, 20:09

jay65536 wrote:Well, there's that, plus the fact that I think solo-throwing doesn't happen THAT often even in draw-based systems. The tendency is to just vote yourself out most of the time, if the big powers are asking you to.


Face-to-face, I could see that certainly being the case. Not sure if that holds up as well online.
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby jay65536 » 31 May 2018, 20:17

Yeah, I could see this being a difference between FtF and online for sure. Of course, the extreme prevalence of and loyalty to draw-based scoring in online play means we may not get to test out our differing hypotheses about whether the rate of solo-throwing would significantly change under a different scoring system.
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 31 May 2018, 21:29

jay65536 wrote:Yeah, I could see this being a difference between FtF and online for sure. Of course, the extreme prevalence of and loyalty to draw-based scoring in online play means we may not get to test out our differing hypotheses about whether the rate of solo-throwing would significantly change under a different scoring system.


Possibly. No one that I know of online does rank-based scoring, but we could ask the webDiplomacy community about their experiences with sum-of-squares games.

And there's always a chance we could get the team here to allow scoring type to be a per-game option...
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby rd45 » 01 Jun 2018, 13:13

NoPunIn10Did wrote:And there's always a chance we could get the team here to allow scoring type to be a per-game option...

maybe don't get your hopes up on that - suggestions around changes to the scoring system get trodden on pretty hard

fwiw, I think it would be a great idea - the default should be unranked, with the current draw-based system, SoS, Carnage & C-Diplo available as options - all of which are variants, if you're a purist, so players could be scored & ranked individually on each of those variants, as they are already today on Versailles or whatever

but I'll fall off my chair in surprise if it ever happens
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby jay65536 » 01 Jun 2018, 14:02

rd45 wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:And there's always a chance we could get the team here to allow scoring type to be a per-game option...

maybe don't get your hopes up on that - suggestions around changes to the scoring system get trodden on pretty hard


Yeah, I've noticed. People seem to have very strong and uninformed opinions on scoring systems--in fact, I'd say the fact that they're uninformed is the only way they can be so strong!
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 01 Jun 2018, 14:33

rd45 wrote:
NoPunIn10Did wrote:And there's always a chance we could get the team here to allow scoring type to be a per-game option...

maybe don't get your hopes up on that - suggestions around changes to the scoring system get trodden on pretty hard

fwiw, I think it would be a great idea - the default should be unranked, with the current draw-based system, SoS, Carnage & C-Diplo available as options - all of which are variants, if you're a purist, so players could be scored & ranked individually on each of those variants, as they are already today on Versailles or whatever

but I'll fall off my chair in surprise if it ever happens


Some of the problem has been finding a system that will play nicely with Elo and scales with all the different game types. C-Diplo, for instance, only works with classic Dip. Sum-of-squares could work, but it’s possible to get a draw score that’s much closer to a solo than what DSS permits. Pure Carnage has the opposite problem: topping the board represents only 25% of total points, which means that no one in a Carnage draw ever earns more than the equivalent of a 4-way. It can get even uglier for variants with more than seven players.

I do think I have a solution though, a variation on Carnage that would scale considerably better in an environment like this.
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby rd45 » 01 Jun 2018, 14:48

NoPunIn10Did wrote:Some of the problem has been finding a system that will play nicely with Elo

IMHO it's exactly the desire for an Elo-style site-wide ranking that's the main problem here. I see how a zero-sum scoring system is helpful for that, and I see how that leads to draw-based systems. But I'd be happy to lose Elo ranking altogether if it meant that we could all talk sense about the pros & cons & different intended & unintended consequences of each system, and so be able to choose a system deliberately in order to encourage specific game outcomes.

The purpose of Elo ranking is to answer a question about whether player A is "better than" player B. But, I'm not sure that's a very interesting question in this game, because it immediately diverges into a whole bunch of sub-questions - like: better at what, exactly? Better at gaming a particular scoring system?
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 01 Jun 2018, 15:12

I actually do like the Elo rating system, and I’m not quite ready to throw out that baby with the bath water.

However, I really do think there are scoring systems that could be used as an alternative to DSS that play nicely with Elo; we just need to be a little mathematically creative.

(But I’ll put my actual proposal in a different thread)
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Re: Is 'Kingmaking' legitimate?

Postby rd45 » 01 Jun 2018, 16:09

NoPunIn10Did wrote:(But I’ll put my actual proposal in a different thread)

Could you link back to it from here, when you do? Because I'd like to read that.
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