Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Anything about the Diplomacy game in general.

In your opinion, is this situation (below): cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Cheating
2
7%
Scummy but not cheating
21
78%
Perfectly acceptable -- nothing wrong with it
4
15%
 
Total votes : 27

Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby nomames » 12 Feb 2009, 17:36

Actully Yaba has it totaly wrong. Turkey was asking me continually for help. It was the stab from Yaba that pissed me off. Now Red was my ally from the beginning. As for playing 5 games with him that of course is a lie. I am usually in 50 or more games at a time, I checked and I am in 12 games with another guy yet am not his ally????? Yaba loves to lie check any game he is in(but this is diplomacy right).
Now I had the option of letting the guy who stabbed me Yaba and his allies take my SC's or give them to my ally. Scummy YES YES YES!!!!
Against the rules? Never as I have watched Watchyour back do it twice in live games and Gru doing it a live game last night. Yet nobody is whining like Yaba.
Look at the game, you will see Yaba stabbed me after an elaborate plot to get turkey, which he claims did not go right. Whatever, would I do it again. HMMM. give my sc's to the guy stabbing me or to my ally? YES I go with ally everytime.
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby connect4 » 12 Feb 2009, 18:13

The point isn't necessarily about the reaction to being stabbed. Everyone gets stabbed sometimes, and it's annoying, but you have to play on.

The issue I had (I'm England in this game), is the outright GIVING of the centers. Now when you're a nation that's nearly eliminated (aka you have 1-2 centers left, and there's no way in heck of surviving at all), that's one thing. In those scenarios, absolutley it might be your best interest to make sure that if anyone takes your centers, it's your ally. That one I buy.

However, this case was different. You had 4 centers, and although you had France and Austria on both sides seeming to close in, you yourself admitted that France was your ally from the beginning. In that case, you might lose a center if Austria comes after you, but the odds are your combined forces would have been able to push Austria back easily. And that would have left you in the game, not only with a reasonably strong alliance, but with the potential to stab your ally. You probably wouldn't have done that, but the sheer potential of that is one of the key principles that balances the game. If you just hand 4 centers over to a 5 center nation in 1903, then they have the potential to become very powerful very quickly, and it ruins the game for everyone else involved (not to mention putting a huge target on the nation that is gaining those centers).

And to put this on the record, I'm not a fan of just handing over centers when you have >2 centers. In those cases, you're giving up. If you form an alliance, rather than giving up, you still have a chance to win. If other people were doing that in other games, I don't condone it either. The game should be played to the end, and not just given up.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents in the matter.
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby stormwatcher » 12 Feb 2009, 20:35

Interesting comments all around. I'm playing Turkey in this game, so I figured I would weigh in.

This is kind of a gray area to me. Supporting your ally into one of your supply centers to prevent its capture by an enemy is something that is sometimes done out of strategic necessity. I've seen this done several times. But in almost all of those cases, it was a temporary agreement, and the center was returned once the enemy was driven back, or there was some other form of compensation. Also, the revenge factor does come into play with some people in this game. I've seen players throw themselves against someone who stabbed them out of desire for revenge, making no effort to stop others from moving in on them. But in most of these cases, there was no planning behind this.

My knowledge of this situation is based mostly on hearsay and the shoutbox convo, but the planned, coordinated handover of all centers to one particular player is sketchy, in my opinion. If that is truly what was taking place, then I would say it's scummy, although not technically a violation of the rules.

As C4 correctly points out, Italy (nomames) was nowhere near the point of being taken over by Austria, me, or anybody else. The more ethical course of action would have been to simply side with France and continue the fight. And, speaking of hearsay, I was told by multiple sources that I was the reason you did this, not Austria. I also think it's in rather poor taste to say Yabada "loves to lie" considering he's only doing this because it clearly bothered him.

Anyway, I usually prefer playing even when all hope of winning is lost, if for no other reason than it sometimes makes things interesting. In this game, Italy plays a very important role in the southern war. Even if someone frustrates you, I can't imagine just walking out on that.
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby Minneapolitan » 12 Feb 2009, 21:15

connect4 wrote:The issue I had (I'm England in this game), is the outright GIVING of the centers. Now when you're a nation that's nearly eliminated (aka you have 1-2 centers left, and there's no way in heck of surviving at all), that's one thing. In those scenarios, absolutley it might be your best interest to make sure that if anyone takes your centers, it's your ally. That one I buy.

However, this case was different. You had 4 centers, and although you had France and Austria on both sides seeming to close in, you yourself admitted that France was your ally from the beginning. In that case, you might lose a center if Austria comes after you, but the odds are your combined forces would have been able to push Austria back easily. And that would have left you in the game, not only with a reasonably strong alliance, but with the potential to stab your ally. You probably wouldn't have done that, but the sheer potential of that is one of the key principles that balances the game. If you just hand 4 centers over to a 5 center nation in 1903, then they have the potential to become very powerful very quickly, and it ruins the game for everyone else involved (not to mention putting a huge target on the nation that is gaining those centers).

That's a damn good point - I agree completely with what connect4 said.

ErikVerhoeve wrote:Unfortunately, meta gaming is hard to detect and even harder to prove. Where does good negotiating stop and meta gaming begin?

And that's why I can't say it's cheating. But it certainly is scummy - or as my girlfriends says, "Skeezy." :)

I also agree with stormwatcher - you can't say Yabada "loves to lie." I've actually found Yabada to be among the most honest and for-thinking players on this site (although I risk building him a reputation that he may not want).

All I can say for sure is that I should've been in this game!! :D
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby Dar Krum » 12 Feb 2009, 21:23

nomames wrote:Yaba loves to lie check any game he is in(but this is diplomacy right).


Gross generalisations like that do nothing for the discussion. For the record, I have played with Yabby on more than one occasion and he has NEVER lied to me. As nonames said though, this is Diplomacy and if you can't take someone feeding you the odd falsehood, perhaps this is not the game for you.


nomames wrote:Now I had the option of letting the guy who stabbed me Yaba and his allies take my SC's or give them to my ally. Scummy YES YES YES!!!!


I guess it is all in what you value. I guess cheating would be a harsh word to use. In a viable situation, one in which you can survive and influence the outcome of the game, to throw it to someone else? I'll go with sketchy, or childish. Certainly annoying and, to me, against the basic spirit of the game. If you are not prepared to fight to the end, in my opinion, don't play. If getting stabbed is going to cause you so much anger or resentment, again, likely not the game for you. And some other players on this site have recognised this in themselves and taken a break from the game.

Anyhow, I will repeat the part that got my attention, the part where Yabby is accused of lying all the time. Simply not true. If anything, he is way too honest and trusting. If anyone needs proof, PM me and I'll show you the games.
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby Master Radishes » 12 Feb 2009, 23:06

Let me back up what others have said - Yabada has never lied to me either, so that's a baseless accusation.

Also, connect4 said what I would've said - when you're down to 1 or 2 centres, that's one thing. When it's early in the game yet and you still have as good a chance as anyone, that's different, and generally unethical. Not strictly cheating, though.
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby LordHaHa » 13 Feb 2009, 01:14

I'm in this game too, and since we got a new Italy, this is all moot to this game.
But my opinion? Simply if you quit and surrender after two years, and are still in a strong position, as Italy was, then you simply should not be playing the game in the first place. You're making it less fun for others. You quit. Why the hell did you even play? If you play so many games at one time, are you playing games and then dumping them immediately if you are not in a strong position? That would be wrong, eh?
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby GruGloG » 13 Feb 2009, 03:58

nomames wrote:and Gru doing it a live game last night.


Okey, not that it matters, but this must be a HUGE lie since I´ve NEVER just "given" my centres away to anyone (trading them for others, yes, but just giving them away, never!).
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby David E. Cohen » 13 Feb 2009, 04:27

Let me somewhat amend my earlier comment. Evidently, this is a somewhat different situation than my assumption, which was that this was happening right at the beginning of a game. At a stage where a player can see they will lose, and they have the power to throw the game to one person or another by handing over dots to one side and defending against only the other, rather than defending against all comer, when the player is going to lose anyway, can be an effective tactic, on multiple levels. First, it is a way to reward someone and/or punish someone else, in that particular game. Second, if people know you are willing to do this, it will tend to make them more reluctant to stab you in future games. While this is metagaming, if it is not done in a prearranged manner, it is not against either the letter or the spirit of the rules.
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Re: Cheating, scummy, or acceptable?

Postby nomames » 13 Feb 2009, 06:11

GruGloG wrote:
nomames wrote:and Gru doing it a live game last night.


Okey, not that it matters, but this must be a HUGE lie since I´ve NEVER just "given" my centres away to anyone (trading them for others, yes, but just giving them away, never!).

Gru
you just gave your sc's to austria, gave them and then attacked france, so it is right there for all to see!
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