PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby kimpossible » 12 Apr 2018, 22:55

While I get where you're coming from as far as scum faking townie innocence, the act of subbing out for an out-of-game reason has nothing to do with one's alignment, therefore doing it to try to get strategic advantage isn't faking towniness.

Additionally, as a GM, I'd be pissed if the scum team wanted to use "Let's all sub out" as a strategy, and I wouldn't let them do it if I thought it was the reason for requesting replacements. They would be making me have to do out-of-game work to get a sub in, involving me in in-game strategy, and potentially threatening the game's ability to continue if for some reason I didn't have a sub.

I'm beginning to suspect that there is a difference in fundamental belief between members of this forum as regards whether a game should exist as its own mini-fiction. Yes, players have a choice as far as whether they choose to let something non-game-related affect their in-game thinking, but doing something outside that fiction with the intention that it affect what happens within the bubble of the game seems like it's bad faith play within the context that we all believe the bubble exists. If some of us believe in the bubble and some of us don't, I think it's probably going to result in some pretty big arguments at some point. And I'm not sure what to do about that.
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby mhsmith0 » 12 Apr 2018, 23:08

@shadow: I think there are a lot of ways to look at it, but a big part of it boils down to "is it fair to force the scum team to deal with townies self-clearing themselves via OGI items or other angleshooting".

Here's an easy example: in Wyse's recent game, I was subbed into the game at the very end of the night phase (or really really close to it), and his message asking for a sub explicitly noted that the slot had NMR'd. From that info (without even knowing who was subbing out or having read the thread in a more than super cursory manner), I KNEW the slot to be town (or, like, 99% sure or whatever). Imagine if you're a wolf in that game (this part should be easy :P ), and I come in talking about the circumstances surrounding the substitution being explicitly clearing for me (even without quoting wyse's message I could certainly have made that point if I wanted to; "why does wyse wait until the end of the phase to recruit someone if not for an NMR" and the like). Is that fair to you to have to deal with a bad-looking slot subbing out (for whatever reason) and then manufacturing a clear due solely to the details of the substitution (also possibly relevant: arguing "why does redScum sub out there when his team is winning after day 1 and probably in decent shape"). That seems like it'd be exceedingly unfair to the scum team; yes, townies might be skeptical of that... but wolves shouldn't be required to overcome that kind of crap in order to get the win.

Another example: your stunt in Galaxy Quest. If I was a wolf and you were a villager, I'd have been FURIOUS at the situation and pretty much demanded that Telleo modkill you for it. Is it fair to scum!me to need to deal with town!you self-clearing through an OGI stunt that only existed to validate that you were being serious in your stated read during the game? I would say no (and it's to my shame I didn't bring up this point to Telleo during the game when I thought you were a villager and had in fact self-cleared through your stunt, but so it goes sometimes *shrugs*)


And if it's not fair for wolves to have to deal with villagers doing it, it's just as unfair for wolves to be able to do it themselves.
Obviously as a community "where is the line" is a collective decision based on what we think is or isn't fair... but I do think it's productive to think about it and figure out what kind of behavior is or isn't ok (and maybe we disagree wiht my examples above, idk)
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby Keirador » 13 Apr 2018, 06:10

I think I'm maybe a bit more on the pro- "dirty tricks" side than mhsmith is. My view here is that it's just impossible to legislate constant good-faith behavior from townies, because they will naturally get frustrated and act out in emotional ways, and it's better to account for that possibility likelihood than design some rules assuming it won't happen. And scum need to be allowed to fake anything a townie might be allowed to do without penalty. Regarding, say, shadow's name bet, I think it was just smart. Townies double-down on their reads with out-of-game stakes all the time, and I don't think it's really practical to attempt to stop that behavior, because it's usually emotionally-motivated, not a logical play. Scum need to be able to fake that or else they're at a distinct disadvantage.

My line on "angleshooting" is basically that you shouldn't be taking advantage of what might be uncharitably described as GM oversight. Like, as a GM Crunkus was so meticulous as to publish every possible role PM, making it more or less impossible to gain unfair advantage from your role PM. I wouldn't be super surprised if he PMed every single player in the game at around the same time, so timing of PMs was not exploitable. If I ever GMed, I could never perform to that standard, so I'd be pretty pissed if a player purposefully used knowledge of GM PMs or PM timing to try to solve the game.
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby mhsmith0 » 13 Apr 2018, 06:12

Standard issue smith rule

Do not quote communications with the moderator (in particular, your role PM). Quoting the timestamp of your role PM counts as quoting your role PM. Paraphrasing communications, however, is usually ok.


8-)
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby Keirador » 13 Apr 2018, 06:38

We definitely agree there, although I'd argue the truly ideal thing would be to make it impossible for a townie player to accidentally exploit that knowledge, as kim did, by PMing everyone at the same time or making it public when messages came out.

I think the actual disagreement here is shadow's name bet. I think it was fine rule-wise, and smart play. Like, in your first game here didn't sjg as town bet his avatar away because he was so sure of a read? Should that have been mod-killable, and more importantly, do you think townsjg would have been dissuaded from doing so given that he was being driven by emotion at that time?
Last edited by Keirador on 14 Apr 2018, 02:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby shadowface » 13 Apr 2018, 12:20

mhsmith0 wrote:@shadow: I think there are a lot of ways to look at it, but a big part of it boils down to "is it fair to force the scum team to deal with townies self-clearing themselves via OGI items or other angleshooting".

Here's an easy example: in Wyse's recent game, I was subbed into the game at the very end of the night phase (or really really close to it), and his message asking for a sub explicitly noted that the slot had NMR'd. From that info (without even knowing who was subbing out or having read the thread in a more than super cursory manner), I KNEW the slot to be town (or, like, 99% sure or whatever). Imagine if you're a wolf in that game (this part should be easy :P ), and I come in talking about the circumstances surrounding the substitution being explicitly clearing for me (even without quoting wyse's message I could certainly have made that point if I wanted to; "why does wyse wait until the end of the phase to recruit someone if not for an NMR" and the like). Is that fair to you to have to deal with a bad-looking slot subbing out (for whatever reason) and then manufacturing a clear due solely to the details of the substitution (also possibly relevant: arguing "why does redScum sub out there when his team is winning after day 1 and probably in decent shape"). That seems like it'd be exceedingly unfair to the scum team; yes, townies might be skeptical of that... but wolves shouldn't be required to overcome that kind of crap in order to get the win.


Were I scum in this case, I would say it's probably a coincidence, that everyone has to be subbed out at some point in the day. I'd make the case that substitutions typically occur at any time and I'd ask you to prove there is some correlation between substitution time and faction. Also, scum had night kills in that game IIRC, so they could NMR too.

If you're basing it on something the GM told you before you took the role or out of the context of you being a player, that's not angleshooting, it's just rude to the GM.


mhsmith0 wrote:Another example: your stunt in Galaxy Quest. If I was a wolf and you were a villager, I'd have been FURIOUS at the situation and pretty much demanded that Telleo modkill you for it. Is it fair to scum!me to need to deal with town!you self-clearing through an OGI stunt that only existed to validate that you were being serious in your stated read during the game? I would say no (and it's to my shame I didn't bring up this point to Telleo during the game when I thought you were a villager and had in fact self-cleared through your stunt, but so it goes sometimes *shrugs*)

But... this I don't understand. That's absolutely a fair thing for scum you to deal with - it's something I can do as town or scum. It's emulating a town thought process to a high degree, but that's what all good scum plays are. You just need to say 'guys, she could have done that as scum as well' and then push that line. It being out of game has nothing to do with anything but upping the stakes - that's why I did it. You can't argue that it would have towncleared me as town... I literally only did that because I was scum. Thus there is a scum motive, and you should have recognized it as NAI. I doubt you gave it as much thought as I did, which is probably why it tricked you.

You demanding me be modkilled would be total BS - because the context we are discussing this in is literally that I did it as scum. So it's NAI! Town just needs to think things through before assigning towncred. If the process is fakable, it's a very risky townclear.
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby kimpossible » 13 Apr 2018, 22:04

For the record, while I disagree with Shadow on the permissiblity of players using subbing out as a strategic move, I'm with her on the name change. It doesn't depend on the running of the game. Knowing the timing or wording of a PM, or the circumstances of a sub, rely on the way the GM is running the game.

I don't see how changing a username is any different from saying "If I'm wrong, I won't post any more flesh memes this game." It's using in-game knowledge to fake a thought process, and I can't understand how that would disadvantage me as scum the way a hard clear based on knowledge that only town could have due to the way the game is run would.
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby condude1 » 13 Apr 2018, 22:09

Subbing out is an unfortunate necessity in many games. The player subbing out IS inconveniencing the GM and slightly hurting the integrity of the game by doing so. Given this, it should be the player (and their sub)'s responsibility to minimize this damage to the game. The GM will obviously do what they can to make it smooth, but if either the new or old player starts using that for a mechanical advantage, it's really poor sportsmanship. To the extent I think it's fair to ban.
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby shadowface » 15 Apr 2018, 02:32

kimbyrle wrote:For the record, while I disagree with Shadow on the permissiblity of players using subbing out as a strategic move

Did I say I that?
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Re: PlayDip Mafia Etiquette Rules

Postby kimpossible » 15 Apr 2018, 14:53

shadowface wrote:
kimbyrle wrote:For the record, while I disagree with Shadow on the permissiblity of players using subbing out as a strategic move

Did I say I that?

Hmm. I saw you say that you didn't mind most of the stuff Smith had listed, so I just assumed it was included as "stuff shadow doesn't mind." If you also think that's a bridge too far, cool then.
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