Mafia CLXVI: Improvised Mafia Day 2

[shadowface]

Ok, well, this is easy.

SJG said that Nanook's questions to the GM made him a lock town, but I don't see how that is the case at all. Strike 1.

SJG claimed he was townreading Nanook, but left his vote on him. Strike 2.

My theory is that SJG wanted towncred for townreading Nanook. That only works if Nanook is the one who dies, so he left his vote on him.

SJG

So Para, I agree that sjg's vote yesterday looks really weird. But I think a more probable explanation than him trying explicitly to gain towncred is that he just honestly didn't care. I've been impaled for something similar as scum before, in... EOD1 Men at Arms I think? I just didn't care enough about who got killed in a town-town lynch and I got sloppy and let it show. If you're town and you have a serious townread you think, what can I do to protect them? If you're scum you actually don't care if they die, and if they're going down at EOD your concern is fake. Also, it's actually kind of nice to have your townreads lynched when you're scum because then you get the credit (like you're saying) and you also have a townread killed off (it's kind of hard to describe this benefit, but basically when you are scum you need to make townreads but they become a bit of a hassle because you can't go after them easily. So if they die it's a good thing for you.) The underlying motivation to move his vote if sjg is town is so much higher than if he's scum, where it's a negative motivation.

So I agree this is scummy - I don't know if it was explicit on sjg's part but even if what he's saying is partially true it would make sense that he wouldn't really care enough to change his vote if he's scum. It definitely fits with a pattern of insincerity that I'm seeing in sjg's game here.

[shadowface]

sjg11

I'm actually pretty confident in this for having 17 pages to work with. Para's playing like he did in Galaxy Quest (though this time it's actually helping me! ), and sjg's coming across as insincere on a few fronts. If this is scum Para I'll be pretty impressed with his play and I'll never trust him again.

[Parabellum]

Any last words, SJG? Unfortunately there were no fingerprints at the Telleo scene, so we can't provide indisputable evidence, but with Iggs we can't take a chance on life in prison.

[sjg11]

Sjg, I don't understand what you're saying your role is. You follow people around without doing anything or learning anything? That's not really a role.

No, the flavour I received last night made me worry about the fact I might be a Tracker in which case PB was clear and you were scum. My role is that I follow someone and if they're targeted by a night-kill I become lynchproof and bulletproof the next day/night phase.

And yeah no clue why you found a knife at the door, I was poisoned last night so maybe that was a result of the killer killing Telleo when she was poisoning me?

[sjg11]

You know, the thing about my stalker last night was that they left a knife in my door. So I'm not sure I'm buying that that role clears you...

Seriously can you explain this role a bit more sjg? Why did you even use it?

As explained in my previous post. It had another ability behind it. I just got confused as to whether it had Tracking capabilities or not.

[sjg11]

Finally, the nanook vote. Yeah it was dumb. I forgot both when the deadline was and that I had voted for nanook. Like my nanook vote was a joke vote made at the start of the Day... I completely forgot that it existed. I'll be honest though... that is an NAI moment as sjg as either alignment would NOT deliberately leave their vote on nanook in that situation. It's just a really dumb error.

fair enough, but I knew that would be your defense. It's an easy one to make. I mean, if you want towncred for townreading Nanook, you can always just kill him off and say later, "oh, I forgot to change my vote". I am well aware that my scumread on you "is flawed" (to quote sf), but I don't see a better scum case from anyone else. It's such a short game, that I'm working with what I have, just like Nanook was in his (imo) bad semantics argument.

I'm not asking you to townread me for it. You absolutely should not be townreading me for it. My point is that it's not a scum-indicative moment. It's alignment-neutral. Completely. Sjg does it as neither alignment.

Not buying this, either. SF already said earlier that this could have been perfectly legitimate "fake" scum-hunting. For such an elementary question as ratios, I see no reason for scum not to fake ask the gm those numbers. It's obviously important information, and all of us knew that the ratio was hidden except from scum. So the question is really, "why wouldn't scum-Nanook ask about the ratios"?

But this is beside the point. becuase Nanook did not ask about the ratios. So the fact that you are saying him asking about the ratios clued you in to his towniness means this is not the real reason you townread him. Did you forget the real question he asked? Was that so unimportant to you? I think you knew he was town before he ever started asking the gm questions.

He asked a question about running tallies. If he were scum he ALREADY KNEW the answer to that question. So there is absolutely no reason to ask the GM a question about it. Condude later confirmed that people had asked him questions about running tallies and win cons. By process of elimination, the chances that nanook asked a question to the GM are pretty high. And if he were Mafia HE KNEW THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION so there was no need to ask the GM about it. If he were town he didn't know the answer to the question. So if nanook asked the question to the GM, which it was very likely that he did, then he must have been town. Thus nanook is highly likely to be town.

[sjg11]

But this is beside the point. becuase Nanook did not ask about the ratios. So the fact that you are saying him asking about the ratios clued you in to his towniness means this is not the real reason you townread him. Did you forget the real question he asked? Was that so unimportant to you? I think you knew he was town before he ever started asking the gm questions.

Yeah sjg, nanook very clearly wasn't asking about the ratios. You're kind of twisting what happened.

But anyways, like I said earlier, this isn't unheard-of scum play at all. The scum motive is that you can report back to the town and say 'Hey guys, I checked with the GM and ____". Makes scum look like they care. What you're saying here is like saying that someone's towncleared because they were scumhunting, and only the town would care about finding the scum so they must be town! Acting is what the scum does, and being right about nanook on this is either you getting lucky or you knowing that he was town already.

SF, your reading comprehension is better than this. Yes nanook saying in thread "I asked the question" isn't indicative. The reason that this is interesting is because condude INDIRECTLY CONFIRMED THAT QUESTIONS IN THIS AREA HAD BEEN ASKED. Namely about wincons and running tallies. And, given that 2 of the 5 of us were completely inactive during that period that's evidence that nanook ACTUALLY ASKED the question.

And there is NO REASON to ask the GM a question you already know the answer to. Like, why the hell do you do that? This isn't about faking asking a question in the thread it's about the fact that we have evidence that nanook ACTUALLY ASKED THAT QUESTION.

[sjg11]

Any last words, SJG? Unfortunately there were no fingerprints at the Telleo scene, so we can't provide indisputable evidence, but with Iggs we can't take a chance on life in prison.

PB, you have a lot to learn from this game.

Firstly, dumb is not scum. A non-indicative moment is a non-indicative moment no matter how stupid it is. And yes my Day One vote on nanook was pretty stupid and was abysmal play. For that reason I accept full responsibility for this town defeat.

Secondly, my nanook argument is completely airtight and I'll stand by it until the day I die. In the AAR you will know that I was both sincere and correct. Learn from that. Re-read what I was actually arguing here and actually try to understand it. From the start of this conversation you've entered into it with an "sjg is scum" mindset. Keirador did that in the last game and it irritated me. You enter into an engagement with me like that then it's impossible for me to engage with you as town.

shadowface

Your vote is shit and you know better than this. You're scum.

[shadowface]

But this is beside the point. becuase Nanook did not ask about the ratios. So the fact that you are saying him asking about the ratios clued you in to his towniness means this is not the real reason you townread him. Did you forget the real question he asked? Was that so unimportant to you? I think you knew he was town before he ever started asking the gm questions.

Yeah sjg, nanook very clearly wasn't asking about the ratios. You're kind of twisting what happened.

But anyways, like I said earlier, this isn't unheard-of scum play at all. The scum motive is that you can report back to the town and say 'Hey guys, I checked with the GM and ____". Makes scum look like they care. What you're saying here is like saying that someone's towncleared because they were scumhunting, and only the town would care about finding the scum so they must be town! Acting is what the scum does, and being right about nanook on this is either you getting lucky or you knowing that he was town already.

SF, your reading comprehension is better than this. Yes nanook saying in thread "I asked the question" isn't indicative. The reason that this is interesting is because condude INDIRECTLY CONFIRMED THAT QUESTIONS IN THIS AREA HAD BEEN ASKED. Namely about wincons and running tallies. And, given that 2 of the 5 of us were completely inactive during that period that's evidence that nanook ACTUALLY ASKED the question.

And there is NO REASON to ask the GM a question you already know the answer to. Like, why the hell do you do that? This isn't about faking asking a question in the thread it's about the fact that we have evidence that nanook ACTUALLY ASKED THAT QUESTION.

Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't do this as scum so you could tell the thread you asked a question to the GM? If scum don't do that, they will be caught every single game for not having this kind of curiosity. I mean, I can almost guarantee I've done this as scum before. It's part of the pretending act. You've completely neglected to address that part of my comment for why there's a scum motive for running things by the GM even if you already know them. You're trying to look like you don't have the whole game solved - THE JOB OF THE SCUM. Even if I knew the answer, I'd never say that I had asked the GM something if I hadn't - that's cheating by a lot of rulesets. So the only option is to actually ask the GM that question.

I mean, it's slightly advanced scum play, but not beyond what players on this site do by any stretch. Now, not having any doubt in something like that - that's an unrealistic level of confidence.

[shadowface]

Any last words, SJG? Unfortunately there were no fingerprints at the Telleo scene, so we can't provide indisputable evidence, but with Iggs we can't take a chance on life in prison.

PB, you have a lot to learn from this game.

Firstly, dumb is not scum. A non-indicative moment is a non-indicative moment no matter how stupid it is. And yes my Day One vote on nanook was pretty stupid and was abysmal play. For that reason I accept full responsibility for this town defeat.

I've said why I think it's indicative.

This is very similar to the correct argument people were making against me when I was lazy scum in Men at Arms. There is a huge difference between how much town cares about their townreads and how much scum cares about them. That difference influences their play, especially when they're not being particularly careful.