Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Game Over - Mafia Victory!

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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 06:40

Jordan767 wrote:...
Scoping out my vote for tomorrow. Trying to triage Keir vs sjg here.

FWIW I'm super conflicted on you, what you're saying still looks scummy but the way you're saying it looks townie. Like, with 80 minutes left and 2 people around, there's little to no way scum!you is still playing right now. But I agree that one of you has to die.

I feel like it's been fairly obvious for quite some time now, but it's 8v1 near nightless, and a mislynch isn't the end of the world, and frankly this game has utterly drained me for what should be very very obvious reasons so I'm really not much concerned w my mislynch anymore.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 15 Jan 2017, 06:53

Jordan767 wrote:
Keirador wrote:FWIW the smith I had been wanting to see seems to have emerged overnight, and I doubt it's a coincidence that this happened after he resigned himself to his lynch and stopped talking about himself. Too little, too late for me to do anything other than go into this lynch resigned to the probability of seeing D3.

Remember Fable 8? Chuck's giant post of "Further townKeirador makes somewhere else to go when he's unhappy with his current vote"?

The link is here for anyone who wants to bask in its large and multicolored glory.

That didn't actually apply that game. I was misrepresenting you to try and get some pressure off me.

But why should it not apply here?



. . . I was town that game. As you knew at the time. UDC's belief about townK's abilities and inclinations was proven definitively wrong. Why in the world should a disproven idea about my town play apply here to determine my alignment?
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 15 Jan 2017, 06:59

Keirador wrote:
Jordan767 wrote:
Keirador wrote:FWIW the smith I had been wanting to see seems to have emerged overnight, and I doubt it's a coincidence that this happened after he resigned himself to his lynch and stopped talking about himself. Too little, too late for me to do anything other than go into this lynch resigned to the probability of seeing D3.

Remember Fable 8? Chuck's giant post of "Further townKeirador makes somewhere else to go when he's unhappy with his current vote"?

The link is here for anyone who wants to bask in its large and multicolored glory.

That didn't actually apply that game. I was misrepresenting you to try and get some pressure off me.

But why should it not apply here?



. . . I was town that game. As you knew at the time. UDC's belief about townK's abilities and inclinations was proven definitively wrong. Why in the world should a disproven idea about my town play apply here to determine my alignment?

UDC's understanding about the scenario in which TownK was in was also fundamentally flawed; I was representing you as deeply dissatisfied with your ZZ vote when that was in reality not the case. Due to this I stand by his assessment of your town play based on the information he had.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 15 Jan 2017, 06:59

If you read Keirador's ISO for day 2 (the way I recommend is to click smith's link on page 1, then change sort to ascending by time and go to page 8), then you'll note that most of what he says about smith is originally from sjg, Crunkus, or even me. And the voteworthy material for him is smith's vote on me, a player he was null-scum on. He now townreads me apparently, and refuses to vote on me, a player he was null-scum on, over smith, a player who he seems to have been null on until then, which is something I'm not all that clear on. Would appreciate clarification. Why was he not engaging to find out the nature of smith's read on me before voting for it, if that was what was potentially massively scummy to him?

Also note him doubling down on his smith read when challenged on it, despite sharing my concerns that the behavior isn't indicative so much as it is potentially indicative.

Conclusions: Keir seems to be contributing very little to the smith lynch. He is taking large parts of his case from Crunkus, sjg, or me, and taking far less heat for it than I am. His read on me is suspect in its mutability and the difference between his stated reads on smith and me and the way he votes. And if he was dissatisfied with the case on me but felt that overall I was lynchable and also vaguely dissatisfied with his current vote, why was he not delving deeper into either of them (especially the potential case on me)? He also appears to be strategically agreeing with me and defending me and I can't help but think that he may be trying to pocket me (also note my expressed concerns about this towards the end of day 1). Plus while this may be hypocritical coming from me, his interaction today has been little wider than mine until his recent discussion about the readability of ZZ's substitution and like me he seems to be uninterested in alternatives to smith's lynch. Come to think of it I don't know why this would be that scummy but if it's scummy for me it's scummy for Keirador, right?

Keir would be an acceptable vote for me tomorrow.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 15 Jan 2017, 07:26

Oof, if that's the best you've got, tomorrow is going to go rough for you.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:28

To do overnight:

reread sjg's ISO and comment on it

reread any and all reasons that have been given to townread these two players (IIRC there are some? I'll check) so I can make sure I'm not just being stupid

make sure my tone-townlean on Crunkus is something that actually makes sense
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:39

Keirador wrote:Oof, if that's the best you've got, tomorrow is going to go rough for you.

I'm definitely not sold on the case, fwiw, but OTOH I don't feel like you're obvtown at all. Could you talk a bit about why you were arguing that my going after Jordan in the first place was scum-indicative? IIRC it either wasn't explained well or I just didn't understand your points.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Keirador » 15 Jan 2017, 07:46

mhsmith0 wrote:
Keirador wrote:Oof, if that's the best you've got, tomorrow is going to go rough for you.

I'm definitely not sold on the case, fwiw, but OTOH I don't feel like you're obvtown at all. Could you talk a bit about why you were arguing that my going after Jordan in the first place was scum-indicative? IIRC it either wasn't explained well or I just didn't understand your points.


Is it your understanding that your case on Jordan was an early or important component of my read on you?
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:47

My recollection was you'd specifically cited "town smith would be pushing elsewhere" when you voted.

Specifically
http://playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 60#p889233
Keirador wrote:By the way smith's push at Jordan is enough for a vote for me. I'd been waiting to see where smith chose to push and whether he would push at an ally/friend or more neutral party (I was trying to stay more neutral to potentially be that target, I think sjg is roughly in that space as well). He's not doing that, which could have been a strong countervailing towntell for me. As is, it kinda looks like he's trying to collect/pocket potential allies and refrain from aggravating or accusing more neutral parties in case they can become allies down the road.

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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 15 Jan 2017, 07:48

So when you ask whether it was an important component, given that you cited it as what caused you to vote, I would say yes. I am fully aware there were other considerations, but that was a specific citation in your voting logic, so I would think that it was a material issue for you.
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