Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Game Over - Mafia Victory!

Moderators: Zoomzip, Telleo, bkbkbk, condude1, sjg11

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby Telleo » 18 Jan 2017, 10:11

shadowfriend1 wrote:
Telleo wrote:You owe me a few more answers than just this. I spent a lot of time answering your posts over the night. I'd prefer to not have all those questions brushed off under the umbrella of "Telleo wasn't very nice."

Telleo wrote:So I'll ask you one more time. SF, what did you do during D1 and particularly during D2 that you would characterize as scumhunting? Quotes or links would be appreciated.

Hey Telleo, I put three hours tonight just into answering your concerns and discussing my case on Jordan with Crunkus. I've been really focussing on my case on Jordan today, which is something I wanted to do yesterday but did not get around to doing, so that is my priority. I do not want to wait until later to push this case I feel strongly about, even though I'm quite busy with my university term.

What you could do to help me out is stop nagging me for a while so I actually have a chance to scumhunt. As for adding more onto the 800 response I just gave you outlining why I'm annoyed with you... no, that's not a reasonable request. That is my thought process, and there is nothing more to add.

Thanks.
Good Night.


SF, I called you on this Day One. Then I backed off. I called you on it Day Two. Then I backed off. We haven't gotten anywhere, so no. I'm not going to just "stop nagging you."

To be clear, I have asked to to show me the scumhunting you've done in this game. I've asked you to quote me in places you feel I've been overly hostile. I have asked you specific questions regarding your thought process in several posts. I don't know why you feel I'm out of line, and your explanation doesn't really cut it. And now when I'm asking you to explain yourself, you're telling me no, you'd rather just focus on YOUR case. A case you feel strongly enough about that it must take up all of your time day three, even though it evidently wasn't important enough to warrant ANY time day two.


So you know what? Fine. Don't answer any of those questions I have outstanding for you. Just answer these three:

Do you believe this is acceptable town behavior? Should I, or should I not, be voting you for this refusal to engage? Were our positions reversed, what would you be doing with your vote right now?
Harb wrote:Telleo is gender-bent Chaucer from A Knight's Tale

Moderator of the Mafia Subforum!
Proud Owner of a limited-edition Medal of Idiotic Valor.
"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun." -Lady Gaga.
Third time's the charm.
User avatar
Telleo
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 17:39
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (951)
All-game rating: (908)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby Telleo » 18 Jan 2017, 10:13

shadowfriend1 wrote:
Telleo wrote:
I'm going to let Crunkus take most of that, but I wanted to point out that this is exactly what Crunkus is talking about. You've pulled up a quote by scum Jordan, and shown how Jordan's using the same language here. That means nothing. Why? Because scum Jordan is doing his best town Jordan impression. What you need to do is show how that language indicates that he is NOT town. "He does this as scum" isn't indicative unless it is ALSO something he DOESN'T do as town.

Have you played with Jordan before Telleo, or read games that he's played in? I've played with him as both town and scum. What I'm saying here is that his play is consistent with his scum play, not his town play. In the case you quote, I can't really quote him not using specific syntax, right? You can't find bite-sized evidence of someone not saying something.

You'd kind of just have to read games with him as both town and scum if this specific contrast is important to you.


That's exactly my point. If you can't show me how he DOESN'T use this language as town, then the point is non-indicative. I don't know what games Jordan's played in as town, or I'd go back to do this myself.
Harb wrote:Telleo is gender-bent Chaucer from A Knight's Tale

Moderator of the Mafia Subforum!
Proud Owner of a limited-edition Medal of Idiotic Valor.
"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun." -Lady Gaga.
Third time's the charm.
User avatar
Telleo
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 17:39
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (951)
All-game rating: (908)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby Telleo » 18 Jan 2017, 10:17

Telleo wrote:
shadowfriend1 wrote:
Telleo wrote:
I'm going to let Crunkus take most of that, but I wanted to point out that this is exactly what Crunkus is talking about. You've pulled up a quote by scum Jordan, and shown how Jordan's using the same language here. That means nothing. Why? Because scum Jordan is doing his best town Jordan impression. What you need to do is show how that language indicates that he is NOT town. "He does this as scum" isn't indicative unless it is ALSO something he DOESN'T do as town.

Have you played with Jordan before Telleo, or read games that he's played in? I've played with him as both town and scum. What I'm saying here is that his play is consistent with his scum play, not his town play. In the case you quote, I can't really quote him not using specific syntax, right? You can't find bite-sized evidence of someone not saying something.

You'd kind of just have to read games with him as both town and scum if this specific contrast is important to you.


That's exactly my point. If you can't show me how he DOESN'T use this language as town, then the point is non-indicative. I don't know what games Jordan's played in as town, or I'd go back to do this myself.


To be clear:

IF Jordan uses this same language as town and as scum, then it's non indicative, correct?

So you've shown that he uses it as scum. Fine. I don't even need quotes from Jordan as town. All I need from you is "Yes I went back and looked at other Jordan games, and he's far more confident/assertive/whatever when he's town." THEN you'd have something. If you haven't done that yet, you should. If you HAVE done that, you should say so. But just insisting that because Jordan used the letter T now, and also used the letter T as scum, he must be scum, is doing no one any favors.
Harb wrote:Telleo is gender-bent Chaucer from A Knight's Tale

Moderator of the Mafia Subforum!
Proud Owner of a limited-edition Medal of Idiotic Valor.
"Russian Roulette is not the same without a gun." -Lady Gaga.
Third time's the charm.
User avatar
Telleo
 
Posts: 5473
Joined: 03 Jun 2013, 17:39
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (951)
All-game rating: (908)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby Crunkus_old » 18 Jan 2017, 14:17

shadowfriend1 wrote:
Telleo wrote:No, that's not really good enough. I need to know what made you react that way. Please actually answer my post, don't just say "nevermind, I didn't mean it."

Crunkus wrote:For the record I also want to understand your sincere understanding of telleo's position toward you at the time. I also want to know if, how, and why that has changed. Thanks 91st.

No problem 84th.

Telleo, you want me to explain why you were pissing me off? I'll just take some time to explain instead of trying to answer every point you made. This seems more productive if what you care about is understanding my viewpoint.

What you said yourself right here is very important:
Like actually, I went back. I’ve made 4 posts to you. The first disagrees on MHS0’s motives for proposing his big plan. The second calls out your Dodgy vote as bad. The third disagrees with your case for MHS0’s innocence, and reflects concern that you don’t seem to understand the case (which has not been addressed, btw). The fourth disagrees with your thoughts on Townreads.

Everything you had said to me this game was negative. This isn't the case with most players. Actually, a standard that I find is productive for the town, and one that I try to hold myself to, is commenting both in agreement and in disagreement. It means a lot to me, and very much encourages me to continue hunting, when somebody else sounds agreement to a point I make. It tells me I'm on the right track. The very best thing of all is when I post a lengthy post and someone goes through it critically, pointing out what they agree and disagree with within the post. This is a very town positive process too, because it is what refines cases.


So, to be clear, unless someone is also in agreement with you...you find their disagreement to be the same as calling you evil. You find it to be personally unsettling...that...disagreement?

Could you please explain why someone needs to partially agree with you in order to be in your view respectful to you? Particularly in the context of a forum mafia game?

This is a rather unusual viewpoint.

You've disagreed with me strongly before. You've even gone further than that. Did you feel you were being personally disrespectful simply because you didn't also agree with something in the same post?

Do you live by the same creed you demand from others here?

If so, could you please be clear that you require this sort of eggshell walking to appease you in future games, because to be honest, I really don't want to be around for that sort of thing. To my ear it's disrespectful of the other gamers. Agreement is not respect.

If it's sincere, it leads me to believe you are a delicate flower in risk of shattering because of unreasonable standards and I'm a fool to play with you because it's going to lead to severe miscommunication.

Is this sincere shadow?

If it is let me be the first to tell you, you're not just anti-town in this, you're disrespectful and a hypocrite. Please end this sort of disrespect for your fellow players. Thank you. Mafia is not about personally validating your concept of yourself as a critical thinker by having others stroke your ego. They are not required to agree with you, even in part, to be respectful. That context does not actually exist.

You are wrong to treat people as though it does.
(sigh)
Crunkus_old
 
Posts: 17650
Joined: 05 Feb 2009, 23:51
Class: Star Ambassador
All-game rating: (944)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby Crunkus_old » 18 Jan 2017, 14:20

shadowfriend1 wrote:
Crunkus wrote:Thanks for taking the time to say so much. I look forward to getting to understand your process in detail today.

At least then I know there is some purpose to what I'm pursuing; that people are considering my contributions to the thread and taking the time to view them critically. The type of glib comment that bothers me is, for example,:
I’m not quoting the rest of SF’s bullshit about this

Next, while we’re on it, what "work you put into this game"? What have you done in this game?



Then I won't be offering that sort of comment anymore.

Had I known you require this sort of thing to be validated and chosen to offer disrespect toward anyone not offering you this independent of the game interests you hold, I'd have never bothered.

Let me be clear. I don't appreciate the work you put into the game if you don't appreciate the work anyone else has put into the game unless they first validate your ego.

That's the process you are describing to me, and it doesn't speak well of you.
(sigh)
Crunkus_old
 
Posts: 17650
Joined: 05 Feb 2009, 23:51
Class: Star Ambassador
All-game rating: (944)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby Crunkus_old » 18 Jan 2017, 14:26

dodgy56 wrote:@crunkus. I've explained why I'm talking about this and haven't gotten to other things.
I haven't blamed you in any way for the fact I haven't discussed other things.

I was talking about scum indicative because you suggested I was scum then voted me. I assumed that meant you thought I was scum. It sounds like you are actually voting me because you believe it's better to get rid of me now rather than because you believe I'm scum. If it's the latter, then you should understand why I'm asking why its scum indicative.


...which you also said was okay with you.

If it's not okay with you to vote for you, why did you say it was?

Why do you have an issue with the fact I'm non-plussed that you've done jack for three game days and come in acting like you are doing us a favour by saying you're "okay" with the town lynching you if it needs to as result?

You've talked about engaging in a lot of process throughout this game, but have shown no real evidence of it. That's indicative of possibly lying, or also, of simply strolling through a game with next to no effort or regard for your fellow players.

So which is it dodgy?

You're right, it's not terribly INDICATIVE of you, because you've shown you have a history of not really showing any regard for how your actions effect other players.

You cannot be allowed to survive in my view to game day 4 leaving the type of fingerprint you've left on the game. If this has been due to RL right now for 3 game days, it begs the question why you didn't sub out...seeing others sub out that were more active than you.

But again, you've posted once again to defend your inactivity and show that you don't want to be lynched for it, but not to actually do anything else game wise.

That's lurking.
(sigh)
Crunkus_old
 
Posts: 17650
Joined: 05 Feb 2009, 23:51
Class: Star Ambassador
All-game rating: (944)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby Crunkus_old » 18 Jan 2017, 14:28

shadowfriend1 wrote:So if you're wondering, Telleo, why I saw your behavior as annoying, or as discouraging to my motivation to play as town, it's that I feel there is nothing I could possibly say in an engagement with you that could yield a positive response. The past has proven this precisely.

Anyways, I hope you understand my perspective now so we can talk about something productive. I'd prefer to spend my time scumhunting, but I did own you and other interested parties an explanation for my frustration.


To be clear, I find the mindset you have described as annoying, and discouraging to my motivation to play as town. It makes me feel as though it is pointless to engage with you further because there is the whole other sub-game around stroking your ego and making you feel validated that I frankly have no desire to play, as it's not the game I signed on for.

I find it disrespectful of you to enforce this sort of thing on other people.

Please stop.
(sigh)
Crunkus_old
 
Posts: 17650
Joined: 05 Feb 2009, 23:51
Class: Star Ambassador
All-game rating: (944)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby Crunkus_old » 18 Jan 2017, 14:46

SF:

Also this is scumhunting.

You are either sincere in your frustration or you are not.

Talking about that is part of assessing you. Understanding what drives you to perform the same behaviour a scum is motivated to do for tactical reasons is part of scumhunting.

When you avoid questions and act unproductive because your ego is not being sufficiently appeased as town, it's good to know that it's because you have all these unreasonable expectations that accompany you and you testify always accompany you going into forum mafia games.

So when you speak of "you hope we can get productive" yeah, you can start by treating all those questions you scoffed at appropriately, and getting productive in answering them.
(sigh)
Crunkus_old
 
Posts: 17650
Joined: 05 Feb 2009, 23:51
Class: Star Ambassador
All-game rating: (944)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby dodgy56 » 18 Jan 2017, 15:58

Thoughts on sjg:

He started strong with a good reasoning for following Telleo's plan and was pretty quick to jump on HM and was also like a dog with a bone about it making sure HM went down d1. The way he hassled HM constantly about his stance reads more like town sjg than scum sjg to me but i would need to re-read some of his other games to confirm that.

Zoomzip calls him out for a qualifier on his vote for HM, which i tend to agree was a little weird given HM's slip was pretty blatant and obvious straight away.

His d1 play overall makes me lean town at that point. I like that he wasnt just looking at HM even though he was fairly certain about him being scum. He questions jordan and sf1 and weighs in quite a bit on Crunkus vs Telleo.

There are several moments about engagement with sf1 that i also really liked. one example is the below
sjg11 wrote:
Keirador wrote:
Telleo wrote:Ok. This is what I've been wanting from you for like 40 odd pages. Nice of you to finally start.

That said, it's not enough.

You've got one scumread on one player. It's not a strong one, it's just "this guy soft defends HM." I'm not disagreeing, I'm just wondering why you don't have anything stronger. Or, you know... anything else at all. You haven't seen anything from any of the other seven players in the past nearly 70 pages?

Also, and this just occurred to me:

Why are you not okay trying to think of reads of people who might be scum, should HM flip town, but you ARE okay backing a plan that requires HM to be town?

I don't really understand this Regina George approach to shadowfriend. Riding somebody for failing to scumhunt always kinda looks like feigned activity to me, but in this case I particularly don't get it. In your experience, does SF usually scumhunt as town to a much greater degree than she's doing here? Is SF the single worst offender for failing to scumhunt beyond Happymeal? Is she worse than, f'rinstance, me? Is she worse than you? Do you have a track record in this game of scumhunting off Happymeal besides pushing SF for not scumhunting?

PPE: Hey, even more of it.

Keirador, I'm also having an issue with shadowfriend's view on the Telleo-Crunkus incident.

Shadowfriend said that it's very rare for a Mafia to get into an engagement with Crunkus. This is because, in her view, Crunkus is a very difficult player to engage with and a Mafia is incredibly likely to slip up if they try to engage with Crunkus. Thus trying to engage with Crunkus is a foolish move.
Yet despite this shadowfriend does not think that Telleo engaging with Crunkus is town indicative.
Her reason for this is that Telleo is an exceptional scum player
Yet if Telleo's an exceptional scum player surely she doesn't make the tactical error to engage with Crunkus in the first place? Surely it makes her LESS likely to be engaging with Crunkus as Mafia in the shadowfriend world view.

So yeah I have an issue with that as well here.


and
sjg11 wrote:
shadowfriend1 wrote:
sjg11 wrote:Yeah but if it doesn't come off you end up dead as Mafia. Which was your initial point. So why does scum Telleo take the risk? Surely better to play it safe?

No, that isn't a sure thing at all though, that Telleo would play it safe. If you're scum, eliminating town Crunkus has a huge up side, because I think we all can agree he is our most thorough scumhunter. He is an extreme danger to the scum.
Her action can be explained either way, thus is not indicative.

Also, if you think this kind of ploy should generate town cred, that's another obvious upside for the scum to do it, so it WIFOMs, does it not?

Shadowfriend, I have a totally different perspective on Telleo-Crunkus. I'm questioning YOUR perspective here.

The issue is that your logic makes no sense when you think about it. A Mafia is unlikely to go after Crunkus as Crunkus is such a good player that going after him in thread is a tactical error. Yet Telleo is an exceptional Mafia player meaning... she's more likely to make the apparent tactical error of going after Crunkus. And she does this to try eliminating Crunkus. Which is logically, next to impossible as Crunkus is such a good town player that he's unlikely to be mislynched. Your argument for it being non indicative isn't really making much sense to me currently.



but ill probably get more into that when i talk about sf1 later.

The issues i have with sjg start d2.

firstly when i engage with him about there being 2 of each number and that potentially being a slip

dodgy56 wrote:
sjg11 wrote:No Keirador's a 2. Zoomzip's action would have been at 5 pull and he's now at 3 pull. 5-3=2 which is Keirador's number. There are two of each number but we only have 1 3 and 1 4 so far so shadowfriend could be either. Happymeal's the other one.

Dodgy, what happened to those thoughts on the game you were gonna post yesterday?


gotcha. my bad.

However i dont see anywhere in the rules that state there are 2 of each number? Have i missed something or is this another time where sjg talks about things as fact when they are just an assumption? or do you know something we dont? i was under the impression the numbers were random Between 1-5?


his response was this

sjg11 wrote:Oh... I've got no idea where I got that impression from. I guess I just assumed that with 10 players and 5 numbers there would be 2 of each number on the board. I also swear I saw one of the early scenarios which were bandied about having 2 of each number but I haven't been able to find it again.


its quite a convenient assumption if he is scum and doesnt really allay my concerns with it being priveledged information. However the more i think about it the more likely it is town sjg. The main reason is as follows. Look at Charity Mafia, SJG makes an assumption about the number of scum (a quite correct assumption as it turns out) and talks about it as though its fact and takes some serious heat for it. Now if sjg is scum this game i would imagine he is being more careful about things like that which look bad. As town he wouldnt be worrying about how it looks so would be more likely to make an assumption like that.

I dont really put any credit in sjg being the one to call out that sf1's number early d2 was wrong as we all knew what it should have been.


other things that came up d2

sjg11 wrote:
dodgy56 wrote:@ sjg if zoom is a 5 that makes keir a 3 not a 2, also how do you get sf1's number? is there a specific distribution of numbers?

dodgy56 wrote:
sjg11 wrote:No Keirador's a 2. Zoomzip's action would have been at 5 pull and he's now at 3 pull. 5-3=2 which is Keirador's number. There are two of each number but we only have 1 3 and 1 4 so far so shadowfriend could be either. Happymeal's the other one.

Dodgy, what happened to those thoughts on the game you were gonna post yesterday?


gotcha. my bad.

However i dont see anywhere in the rules that state there are 2 of each number? Have i missed something or is this another time where sjg talks about things as fact when they are just an assumption? or do you know something we dont? i was under the impression the numbers were random Between 1-5?

thoughts will have to wait til the morning


The above quotes are from an exchange I had with dodgy earlier today about the distribution of numbers in the thread. At this point I'd guessed shadowfriend's number based on a faulty assumption that, with 10 players and 5 numbers, there were two of each number in the game.

I kinda want to discuss dodgy's response to it as it's the only potentially indicative moment I can find on him. His confusion around the topic in the thread sounds to me, currently, more like a townie who didn't know the numbers distribution and thought he'd caught a potential slip rather than someone who knew all the numbers and knew I was wrong on the topic.

I'm trying to work out if faking that is within dodgy's range as Mafia. It's been a while since I played with dodgy as Mafia.


im not sure how many people engaged with the above. Justy is probably the only one ive played with as scum recently, but also played with Telleo a while ago.

As i re-read Sjg i felt better about him than i did when i started. I also need to look over zz's case against sjg again and see if that throws up anything that tweaked my interest after a reread
you never play your hand.
You play the man across from you

The man who can smile when things go wrong has thought of someone else he can blame it on

Drug Cheats mafia now in signups
User avatar
dodgy56
 
Posts: 2474
Joined: 29 May 2013, 04:34
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (833)
All-game rating: (764)
Timezone: GMT+10

Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Night 2

Postby dodgy56 » 18 Jan 2017, 16:17

Crunkus wrote:
dodgy56 wrote:@crunkus. I've explained why I'm talking about this and haven't gotten to other things.
I haven't blamed you in any way for the fact I haven't discussed other things.

I was talking about scum indicative because you suggested I was scum then voted me. I assumed that meant you thought I was scum. It sounds like you are actually voting me because you believe it's better to get rid of me now rather than because you believe I'm scum. If it's the latter, then you should understand why I'm asking why its scum indicative.


...which you also said was okay with you.

If it's not okay with you to vote for you, why did you say it was?

Why do you have an issue with the fact I'm non-plussed that you've done jack for three game days and come in acting like you are doing us a favour by saying you're "okay" with the town lynching you if it needs to as result?

You've talked about engaging in a lot of process throughout this game, but have shown no real evidence of it. That's indicative of possibly lying, or also, of simply strolling through a game with next to no effort or regard for your fellow players.

So which is it dodgy?

You're right, it's not terribly INDICATIVE of you, because you've shown you have a history of not really showing any regard for how your actions effect other players.

You cannot be allowed to survive in my view to game day 4 leaving the type of fingerprint you've left on the game. If this has been due to RL right now for 3 game days, it begs the question why you didn't sub out...seeing others sub out that were more active than you.

But again, you've posted once again to defend your inactivity and show that you don't want to be lynched for it, but not to actually do anything else game wise.

That's lurking.


ok ill go back to how today went down and you tell me how i should have responded to the questions i was asked. I mean i answered your questions as you asked them but looking back i feel like there wasnt an answer that would have satisfied you. I mean you asked

[quote="Crunkus"Question about your activity from yesterday, did it get answered? As town are you okay with eventually needing to be lynched as a result of simple lack of data regarding you? Where are you with that, and will RL circumstances allow you to become more active in the coming game days?[/quote]

I answered you based on how i felt about the issue, but looking at it nowi feel like you backed me into a corner saying that i am ok with being lynched as a result of lack of vote data. if i say no, youre going to scum read me. i say yes and you still scum read me. i dont understand why you have an issue with my answer to that question, or more specifically what answer i could have given that wouldnt have been an issue for you.

As for the 2nd part of that question, i answered that honestly as well. i stated i intended to become more active and that RL should allow that to be the case. Then as i respond to you on that i get called out for only being active when im talked about. You still havent addressed how that is scum indicative or how it is more likely than RL being busy d1 and d2 and that i can genuinely be more active today.

We clearly have different views of when a sub is needed. I wasnt even at any prodded by the GM. You have your way of running games and your own expectations of people. also for what its worth, the GM of this particular games has given his own sort of guidelines of minimum activity for this game. If condude had come to me and asked me how my activity levels were going i probably would have subbed out, idk. in any case i intend to be more active d3 than i have been so far and at this point i dont see the relevance of whether or not i should have subbed out or how its indicative of my allignment.
you never play your hand.
You play the man across from you

The man who can smile when things go wrong has thought of someone else he can blame it on

Drug Cheats mafia now in signups
User avatar
dodgy56
 
Posts: 2474
Joined: 29 May 2013, 04:34
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (833)
All-game rating: (764)
Timezone: GMT+10

PreviousNext

Return to Game Threads

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests