Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Game Over - Mafia Victory!

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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 10 Jan 2017, 19:31

Crunkus wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:You don't think I'd have communicated basic information that my buddy would have needed to know? Why in the world do you think I wouldn't have done that?


Smith really sincerely wishes here he did that.


You of all people should remember my being really spammy in scum chat in Fruit Salad.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 10 Jan 2017, 19:34

Crunkus wrote:Yes Smith, I really want to believe your scum, because you are showing an uncharacteristic inability to engage. You respond to that by not getting reflective but constructing a fantasy where I have it in for you. This whole thing feels forced, and I very much want to believe it is an I'll advised scum strategy.

I'm not
constructing a fantasy where I have it in for you

so much as I am simply recognizing where you are screwing up and interpreting it as "bad town" instead of "scum" (this of course doubtless annoys the hell out of you [unless I'm wrong I guess], but that's not really my problem here). Provided that we're going to 8:1, the idea of being mislynched, while obviously annoying, is less of a concern than being able to sort the people who choose to push on me tomorrow.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 10 Jan 2017, 19:42

viewtopic.php?f=306&t=54506&p=888800#p888800
Crunkus wrote:...
Smith, we respect, you're talking out of your ass. I've done it before, but let me help you here, just in case you're actually town and want to start acting like it.

Lack of percieived thread awareness is about the WORST indicator you could conceivably use on anyone short of someone who literally loses interest when they play one alignment or the other on a regular basis. It's so straightforwardly associated in such a fucking obvious way with so many out of game considerations, that's it really takes a special sort of ignorance (and I can say this having had heaping handfulls of it myself on so many occasions) to fashion a meta read from it.

You don't have the ability to meta read me smith. You sit there talking up my mastery as wolf, and then act like there are few key tells that you leveled down after the few games we've played together.

You must have an enormous opinion of yourself if all of those things are true at the same time....or...you're talking to achieve an effect to different purposes at different times, and together they just don't add up to a coherent ethos.

Maybe you don't have a coherent ethos...I doubt I do. Or maybe you're just full of it.

(I probably am)

But I think you might be scum this game.

^this, in particular, is I think indicative for crunkus of his mindset. It's I suppose fakeable on some kind of theory basis, but I don't think his engagement here is insincere. I think he's honestly upset at me that I'm basically reading him as town for his mistakes, and that he's choosing to interpret this as an insincere process on my part as opposed to taking seriously the (obviously plausible) option that I actually believe this and actually feel like I can read him decently well. It's not a grudge or intentional bias so much as it's just his ego speaking here.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby sjg11 » 10 Jan 2017, 19:49

mhsmith0 wrote:
sjg11 wrote:...
2. Happymeal may have posted in the thread before reading scum chat. He may have only skimmed through scumchat. There are still a hundred ways that happymeal makes that error even if he had been "coached". And I'm far from convinced that that would automatically flash up in someone's mind as a first thing to do as Mafia.

It is certainly true that HM might have ignored scumchat and decided to derp on his own. But you've now played with me a number of times, and have seen me as both alignments. Do you really profess that I in particular would not have made a note of that in scum chat? Not "someone" (as in a generic scum) but me, with my overall mindset, as well as the fact that I'd been posting in thread quite a bit (including specifically on mechanics) before HM popped in?

Is it really your position that I, both as someone who pays a decent amount to mechanics in general (at least for games with mechanics), as well as someone who had ACTIVELY BEEN ENGAGED IN MECHANICS TALK IN THE THREAD, would not have provided relevant commentary in scum chat had I been scum? Like, is this actually a serious position that you'd actually thought about and come to that conclusion on? Or is this just a handwavy thing where you've decided that this is the conclusion you want to come to and couldn't be bothered to actually consider how well it made sense with me as a player and the engagement in thread I'd already made well before happymeal posted?

Smith I have no idea if you're active in scumchat or not. In fact the only time we were scum together (admittedly just a Resistance game) there wasn't much talking in the scumchat if I recall correctly.

Moreover, there's STILL the point about happymeal not necessarily checking the scumchat before posting in the thread, which even you admit is possible.

So no I don't know whether you would make that observation in scumchat or not and, even if you did make it, there's no evidence that happymeal would have read it before posting in the thread.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby sjg11 » 10 Jan 2017, 19:51

mhsmith0 wrote:
I'd have also probably pushed him to be participating in scum chat, and (if his goal with his post was to try and create a derp clear, which at least seems like a plausible explanation) I'd have certainly pushed him to talk through what he was doing, why he thought it might work, and then seeing the details, told him not to do it.

Smith, in the context of a game without a Night 0, there is still no evidence that happymeal would have checked the scum chat before posting in the thread. If he doesn't that conversation never happens so the derp isn't picked up on before it is made.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 10 Jan 2017, 19:56

sjg11 wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:
I'd have also probably pushed him to be participating in scum chat, and (if his goal with his post was to try and create a derp clear, which at least seems like a plausible explanation) I'd have certainly pushed him to talk through what he was doing, why he thought it might work, and then seeing the details, told him not to do it.

Smith, in the context of a game without a Night 0, there is still no evidence that happymeal would have checked the scum chat before posting in the thread. If he doesn't that conversation never happens so the derp isn't picked up on before it is made.


Yeah but that's not the current theory going around

crunkus
viewtopic.php?f=306&t=54506&start=850#p888946

telleo
viewtopic.php?f=306&t=54506&start=850#p888940
viewtopic.php?f=306&t=54506&start=850#p888943

sjg
viewtopic.php?f=306&t=54506&start=850#p888942

You are all pushing the idea that I, as a player, would not have bothered to discuss this with HM. You're also noting the (fair) point that HM may simply not have bothered to check scumchat, or might have just said "fuck it" and posted anyway. Obviously that's possible. But I'm more concerned with the thought process that would lead someone to actually believe that I, as a player, would not have bothered to discuss this.

Also, how well do you know happymeal as a player? Does anyone know if he'd be the type of person, as scum, to just dive right into thread without bothering to check scumchat? Does anyone have meta with his scum game and have a sense of whether this is what he would have actually done in that situation?
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 10 Jan 2017, 20:08

Happymeal wrote:I wanted to be the first to post :(. Game started same day I went to sign up for classes .

I'm gonna read the thread to see if this was discussed, but I'm pretty certain the best way to nullify the night game is to reveal everyone's numbers and then subsequently force players with the closest numbers to one another to push/pull one another. This pretty much allows us to guarantee no night besides a scum or two messing with the numbers, but if they do, we can narrow it down with simple mathematics. More to come after I read the thread.


Like, this is about 12 hours into the game. What sort of scum player (presuming he did in fact read his role PM) just says "fuck it" and posts in thread without even eyeballing scum chat in the first place?

It's especially interesting given that it seems sort of like an intentional attempt at a derp clear similar to the rules misunderstanding idea I'd discussed from telleo's POV, that was simply mis-executed. I'm not sure of that, but if that was what it was going for, then "happymeal read the thread but didn't bother to read scumchat" seems really bizarre as a game state.

FWIW it's possible that it's accidental and I'm reading to much into this, but I'll be mulling this over a bit more overnight. Needless to say anyone who wants to hop on board the crunkus-mobile will actually have to justify why they believe what he's pushing.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby sjg11 » 10 Jan 2017, 20:13

Smith, the fact that happymeal didn't check the rules carefully suggests it's possible that he could also have not checked scumchat before posting in the thread. Happymeal is also careless at times, as happymeal himself will admit. He's definitely

Moreover I'm not really sure what your issue is with my thought process here. The one time we were scumchums I don't recall you being particularly active in the scumchat. Thus why should I be concluding that you would be active in the scumchat here? I've GMed plenty of games where the scumchat is like a library and I have no evidence that you're particularly special in regards to posting in a scumchat.

@smith: I actually believe happymeal when he says he didn't read the thread before posting that. If he doesn't read the thread I think there's a good chance he doesn't check the scumchat either before posting it.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 10 Jan 2017, 20:30

@sjg: the one time we were scum chums there was no scum chat (I remember being annoyed about it because I would have liked having it, especially given how badly I was doing)

I regularly spam scum chat, including

(my first MS scum game, where I posted more in scum chat [open only at night] than I did during the day)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=66768

(when I was a solo killer)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p7938113

(my first scum game at all, where I was super spammy)
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... Mafia-Chat

(relatively non-spammy for smith, relatively spammy for a normal player)
http://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/thr ... Mafia-Chat

I've also been scum in games with skype or discord chat, but since those records aren't public (I think), those are harder to link.

Literally "smith probably wouldn't have posted much in scumchat" or "smith totally wouldn't have warned his buddy about a fairly obvious potential trap" are reads completely at odds with how I actually play. The only way HM could be scum with me is if he simply didn't bother to read scum chat. Thus the questioning of whether HM would ACTUALLY have done that sort of thing as scum, preferably with a link to previous scum experience on his end so I can dig around there a bit.

I suppose I may just go hunting mysefl, but it'd be nice if someone could point me to previous scum games of his (if any).
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby condude1 » 10 Jan 2017, 20:36

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