Mafia CLVI: Charity Mafia: -- Pure of Heart Win!

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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby justy » 09 Dec 2016, 23:19

sjg11 wrote:justy,

Why did you not mention my town explanation for the slip when you unvoted instead mentioning the town-sided plan instead?

Moreover, can I check you're saying that my vig plan is town indicative not merely town positive?


Forgot to answer the second part in my PPE. I think you proposing town positive plan is town indicative. Not making me super-town-read you, but your in my town basket at this point.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Telleo » 09 Dec 2016, 23:20

sjg11 wrote:I'm also becoming interested in justy's unvote for the record.


As am I.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Telleo » 09 Dec 2016, 23:24

Thyrfing wrote:
Telleo wrote:So I know from my perspective why that seems scummy. Why does it seem scummy from your perspective? After all, you know you're town, right? What scum motive is there for Sjg to hand wave towards you without real analysis?

Didn't specify cause I thought it obvious... throwing mud around townies and laying the bases for making cases for today or future lynches, that's why scum attack townies, yes? It's usually a "scumslip" to just mention someone to divert attention but with no real nothing behind it...


Ah. So see, I was concerned by it because it felt like potential bussing. As though Scum Sjg was going to push a case on Town Con, and saw an opportunity to throw shade at his buddy Thyrfing, without actually making a case against him. Hence why I pushed Sjg to actually engage on you.

Obviously, that's not an indicator to you, because you know your own alignment. Does Scum SJG push a case on Town Con, and at the same time just kinda glance at town Thyrfing? I don't think so. I'm not sure why you do. Could you elaborate on this?
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby justy » 09 Dec 2016, 23:25

condude1 wrote:Harb, you answered part of your own question there "Absent people who aren't caught up...", which is exactly what I'm assuming Keirador was: not caught up.

Everything in this game has a town explanation. To scumhunt I look for posts with town explanations that are less likely than the corresponding scum explanation. This is either by having the town explanation hard to understand, the scum explanation really powerful, or, more likely, a combination of the two. In this case, Justy's behaviour makes total sense from a mafia's standpoint, but the town explanation, while present, seems less likely due to my expectation that justy would think twice before voting sjg over that.

Justy didn't abandon the case immediately, only once it was clear that the slip narrative on Sjg was going nowhere. Nothing had changed with the actual case, and the unvote came with no explanation. That's exactly the behaviour I'd expect from someone who knew their vote was in an unjustifiable place: scum.


I think I've addressed this in my answers to others, but you are misreading the delay. It really isn't indicative, because I wasn't around between my vote and unvote. When I had time to read and post, I answered to Telleo and Sjg, realized Sjg's mechanics suggestion and unvoted. You say nothing had happened with the actual case, but I disagree. Time had passed and it had allowed reflection. Sjg had discussed his vote more. I had realized what Sjg said about mechanics. These aren't huge issues, but we're talking about early D1 vote here.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Telleo » 09 Dec 2016, 23:28

Thyrfing wrote:
Telleo wrote:I expected to get exactly what I asked for. Why do you find my question to be a dangerous breach of security, but asking about the motivations behind it isn't?

Yes, I do. Asking the town questions about their roles with no objective other than knowing information about their roles (that's what you just stated you expected to get) is scummy as hell. As in information fishing.
Questioning scummy behaviour is my job as a townie.


Wow. Ok. So obviously I have a reason for asking that isn't "I just felt like it." Why do you believe the answer to my question is dangerous? I'd like an actual answer please, not just "info fishing is bad." And, in light of that, why do you believe me sharing my intentions with the question is not dangerous?
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Telleo » 09 Dec 2016, 23:31

Thyrfing wrote:
Telleo wrote:Also, you're against this plan because it doesn't give full information. You were against Sjg's plan because you thought it was predicated on getting information that you didn't think could be obtained. What does a perfect plan look like, to you? Or are you just opposed to all planning?

Yes, I am mainly opposed to planning (as I said except maybe for just directing the vig kill).

In fact, if we are to do this vig directing thing, I will offer myself to be the target (and target the 2nd scummiest person myself)



"I don't like planning. Here, I'll volunteer to be a crucial part of a pan I've argued against."

I am strongly opposed to Thyrfing being the anointed one, should we go with the single target plan.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby justy » 09 Dec 2016, 23:34

condude1 wrote:I can see the knee-jerk reaction to be following up a perceived scumslip find with a vote on that person. It's reasonable as either alignment. However, justy didn't find the scumslip, he came in later, and commented that sjg was a good vote, echoing what others said, and then dropped the vote. There's no excuse for a townie with bloodlust for the scum they just found, there's just the "This looks like an alright vote" argument, which is way more measured, also, in his unvote, Justy commented that he was unvoting because Sjg's plan was town-friendly. Nothing changed with respect to his original problems with Sjg.


Umm, do you even remember why I voted Sjg? It wasn't only because of his slip post. It was the slip post plus his following posts supporting the slip idea. Your making it sound like I saw red and went "good idea, what are we voting him for?".

condude1 wrote:Like I said, the votes that come from people who found the slip were knee-jerk "GG scum!" posts. There is no second thought because they're bringing up a scumslip to the town, and think they've nailed scum.


You've said that you don't see Keir as scummy because he knee-jerked here and he also knee-jerked in Fable 8. But isn't this more about the posting style players have when they read through thread? Instead of knee-jerking, I went through the rest of the posts to see if there's more. When I found more posts supporting the view of Sjg knowing the amount of players, I reached same conclusion Telleo did. Keir instead reacted immediately, because that's his style (at least recently).
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby justy » 09 Dec 2016, 23:43

Time to sleep. Before I go, two things.

1) I really prefer one target for Vig and Doc plan. It's true that it still allows scum to make a guess for vig and doc with decent odds. But that also assumes that scum can redirect abilities and that there really is vic and/or doc. Also, this plan still has better chance for preventing vig kill than Harb's option.

I think that Condude's plan requires us offering too much indirect info about what roles we have when we choose the A, B, C and D.


2) Condude1 reminds me more of scum smelling blood than town trying to resolve my alignment. He is trying to sell his vote for Harb and others, not know why I did what I did.

This same sentiment goes for Thyrfing. I doubt they're both scum however because they're on same target so early. But condude has showed more of his reasoning, which I find both bad and contradicting to his own early D1 play (re True Love early vote).
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 09 Dec 2016, 23:48

So there are two players currently who I'm considering voting for, namely condude and justy.

Condude's case on justy... has some odd aspects to it.

Namely that I don't really see the difference between what justy did and what Keirador did.

Specifically, I don't follow condude's point about justy engaging less around the vote than Keirador did. If anything, I felt like it was the other way around and Keirador was the one who was engaging less, probably due to the same reasons why Keirador is going to be largely phone posting for a while. This point concerns me a lot as it could easily show a townie making an easily justifiable vote rather than weighing up the options and then voting accordingly.

As for justy... I have serious issues with his comments about my plan being town indicative. I feel like justy is smart enough to know that people proposing pro-town ideas is not a town indicative statement at all.

At the same time I'm balancing that out with the fact that he's saying it's a weak townread, something which I do give some credit towards and which does weaken the read to an extent.

Still it concerns me and I could easily vote for justy today.

I think, overall though, that comment makes my condude read stronger than my justy read at this moment in time. Plus it's getting late here and I want to put something down in red.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Thyrfing » 10 Dec 2016, 00:01

justy wrote:Should I have realized the mechanics aspect before I voted him? Possibly, but realizing anything mechanics related is kind of slow process for me. If you don't trust me in this and have plenty of time, read my ISO from Big Medium Small 2. I start D2 by going happily along with Sjg's night analysis before realizing what mechanics really imply for D2 strategy.

Putting forward good or bad plans/strategies is rarely indicative of any alignment. Townies propose bad plans more often than not and scum usually end up with great plans for the town because they've thought about how to exploit mechanics (even if just for the town cred they might gain...)

Our issue with the unvote (I agree with con here) is that you never address how you don't think the ratio thing is a slip anymore. Like, you just got told he assumed it but didn't know it and you believed it?

Honestly I am starting to get more townie vibes from justy. His process comes as honest at this point... although I'd like to reread tomorrow.
Anyways I don't think it's any scum indicative of condude since I share a lot of his points on justy.

justy wrote:
condude1 wrote:As for my scumreads, currently I'm thinking that there is probably a scum on the Sjg wagon (or Sjg himself is scum). The "slip" was interesting, but I think that the people that voted Sjg should know a bit better than to just shout "SLIP!" and vote Sjg. If Sjg is town, then the mafia would love a chance to off him D1.


Say what? Are you honestly saying that Sjg's slip isn't valid reason to put heat on him? Especially when we're like 5 pages into D1.

Just to remind you, here's your D1 vote from True Love, in it's full glory:

condude1 wrote:Attitudes/VIAP. Neither of you has made a post. Currently I have nothing to go on from the, oh, 7 posts that aren't mine in-thread, so I'll vote for some lurkers.


You were town there, and were lynched because scum were saying you should know better than to just shout lurker.

LOL in your face brah :lol:

condude1 wrote:The vote order went Telleo-Justy-Keirador. Telleo's vote is not difficult to see coming from a townie, since I know the feeling of catching a perceived slip, and it often comes with a vote. Justy's vote is pretty darn weak, and was a pretty easy one to make. On the other hand, we have Keirador, who claims to have noticed the slip independently of Telleo, even though there have been pages of conversation about it. His follow-up comes quite a bit later, and is a one-liner. I don't think Keirador's lying about noticing the slip independently, Keirador catches up like that: see Fable 8 where he revealed he wasn't anointed after we knew who was the anointed.

So, currently, I'd bet one of Keirador or Justy's mafia.

Condude, why Keirador or Justy? Wasn't your main issue with the unvote, and not the vote? :shock:
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