Mafia CLIV: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia (Town Win)

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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby shadowface » 04 Nov 2016, 23:08

Hi everyone, I am glad to see that we didn't lose anyone last night. I was planning to engage in the discussion on what this could mean, but quickly ran into this post by Happymeal and had to debunk his case first.

Happymeal wrote:
shadowfriend1 wrote:If you don't follow the plan that the town decides to go with, I'll visit you tonight and squish you.


Here's where my perplexity to SF starts: His over-committal to the plan.

Firstly, I'm a she.
Happymeal wrote:He vehemently holds (throughout the day) that he wants to stomp me despite my re - reveal as large (though that's not the biggest issue). The reason I find this most odd is because of his original stance in regards to the plan itself.

Well, you really shouldn't care if I want to stomp you if you are large. Also, for the record, I stomped UDC last night.

Happymeal wrote:
shadowfriend1 wrote:Sure. Potential flaw might be if a lynch falls on Monday for me. On monday I am booked entirely solid with classes and monster commutes and, depending on how many buses I have to wait for, might not be able to check in, almost certainly not with a short (ie. 3hr) deadline. It would make me very sad to get killed for this.
EDIT: I wrote this before knowing my size or faction while reading the thread, and now that I know I'm large, if I don't make a deadline I don't mind if everyone tries to stomp me.
On that note, the stomping plan doesn't work if the target is large, or solve the problem of what we're supposed to do with the small and medium townies.
@Zoomzip: If a large player doesn't consolidate votes, we can't stomp him to death at night. Would you want to lynch him the next day then? What would you do if he claims to have been busy - still lynch him for it? I'm not against your plan (in fact it sounds quite fun), but I'd like to know how this would work, with almost everyone being large so far.


Do you see his response? This is not the response of a man who wants to adhere to the plan in such a way that he did originally. Does this look like a post from a guy who would aggressively pursue the tenets of such a plan? First off, he responds with solely "sure". It's not as if he's like sjg whose perspective changed entirely as a byproduct of such a plan reveal which I could comprehend someone like that pursuing its conventions in such a way. However, SF not only scream neutral "ok, I'll do this", but he also has some issues and questions about the plan. He hasn't even completely addressed his issues with such an idea, but his first response to a dissenter is basically to threaten to kill him.
Happymeal wrote:Here's what I want to know SF: Why? Why did you pursue this so aggressively when you already had concerns about things as well as not coming straight away with such a pious attitude? What changed your attitude so much in a matter of posts?

You are generalizing, and then trying to draw conclusions when the very answer to the questions you ask comes from looking at the details you have just omitted. You generalize that I had concerns: these concerns are observations I thought might limit the efficacy of the plan in my specific situation, both of which were quickly resolved.
  • For mondays not being good for me - Zoomzip replied that it is fine that I am not avaiable on Mondays, and that he was glad I brought it up now.
  • For my thought about stomping larges probably not working - Zoomzip replied that we could simply lunch large dissenters, or at very least give them a thorough investigation the next day.
  • You say I did not 'come straight away with such a pious attitude' - I don't think I did this? I mean, I was pretty on board for this plan from the start. I pointed out two minor flaws in a plan I liked, resolved them, and continued with the game.
  • My attitude towards that plan did not change at all during the day. Perhaps, at most, from happy with a few questions to happy with the plan. That is a normal progression for a critically thinking townie.
Happymeal wrote:
[*]@Don Juan - Describe the benefits of a partial town reveal vs a full town reveal please. Then reveal. [/list]


Now, here is a second piece of evidence I find odd about SF. He questions Don Juan about the benefits of a partial town reveal and is extremely willing to vote for him in a lynch despite only wanting him to answer the question.


In literally no world was I 'extremely willing' to vote for Don Juan. I opposed his lynch entirely yesterday, from start to finish. Like:
  • shadowfriend1 wrote:I'm having a lot of trouble seeing DJA as scum right now. Has anyone actually made a proper case on him, or found a legit scumtell?
  • shadowfriend1 wrote:I don't see Don Juan as scum. I won't be blue-voting him today (unless he does something more incriminating). Why is any of this better explained by him being scum than town?
  • shadowfriend1 wrote:People, are we really lynching a brand new player on Day 1 with a case amounting to: he cracked a joke instead of giving a well-thought out response and therefore must be nervous scum?

    Is this what it's come to?

    I'm ashamed in you all.
  • shadowfriend1 wrote:@Zoomzip: as for DJA, I believe the cases on him so far have been total crap. Do you even have a case on him that included anything that's scummy, not just fishy, behaviour? I have not seen any such case from anyone.
The fact that you have the perception that I wanted to lynch him yesterday is... confusing. Please, find a quote where I said that was a good lynch, because I've provided four where I opposed it.

Happymeal wrote: However:

shadowfriend1 wrote:
Happymeal wrote: I think it only be fair I not only question him, but pressure him with my vote. it makes no sense to aggressively pursue someone without a tool to do it with. If you think none of this is critical, you've missed everything I've stated, but that's irrelevant.

Could you please restate this? I do not understand your point here.


He responds to my statement with a question and that he doesn't understand. However, he had just done the same thing prior to me and my explanation about my vote. Why in the world would he apply a tactic and not comprehend when that tactic is explained. This to me can happen as a byproduct of two things.

The first of these is that he just didn't understand my phrasing. As I reread this, it doesn't seem like it'd be difficult to comprehend. However, he's made plenty of claims that he is "as dumb as a cucumber" or whatever. Basically, he says he is stupid. I don't buy that. Do you know why? I went through his other games recently and read things about him and his interactions with other people. I especially read Plague mafia (not the whole thing, just enough to get perspective) and the last big, medium, small mafia. First and foremost, generally speaking, people did not have a low opinion of him. They generally stated that he was an intelligent guy. The second factor is that as I was reading through his posts when he played, he never seemed to easily misunderstand things such as this even during the more difficult passages. I do not believe for a second he misunderstood this as a byproduct of intellect.


Happymeal, keep in mind that in each instance YOU were calling me stupid, saying things like:
  • Happymeal wrote: Man, are you really this dense?
  • Happymeal wrote:They said blood is thicker than water, but you're thicker than blood.
It's frankly insulting and I replied to that by respecting your opinion. You have declared in the above quotes that I am unintelligent. However, now you claim that I am actually so intelligent - I couldn't care less how intelligent you judge me to be, but please be consistent. The fact is, it is clear that you yourself have undergone a change in how you view me as a player, but trying to peg that on me being inconsistent doesn't work when you're posted that very view in the thread.
Happymeal wrote:The second is that he did not recognize this because he is not actually voting to figure out who the scum is. He voted Don early into the game because he needed something to do besides answering questions and make himself look busy.

You mean in my very first post, which was a whip vote to get him to claim? A vote which I then changed in my second post, once I had finished reading the thread?

Why would I need to 'make myself look busy' in a post I made literally 18 minutes after entering the game?

Why would I then find a new lynch target in my very next post?

Happymeal wrote:Now comes along Happymeal who does the same thing and he doesn't recognize the tactic nor the purpose? He's not paying attention to the game he's playing, which is something I think is a common attribute of mafia. They do not care about the details of the game and therefore do not pay attention to them. Something that SF has demonstrated greatly here.

Now, the questions I will give to you are these. Why did you not recognize that I used a tactic that you had used directly after I did and why did you not comprehend the point originally?


That is a strange way to pose a question. I did not understand your post because you phrased it poorly so I asked for clarification. That is a signal of me thoroughly reading and trying to understand the thread, a strange thing to see as a scumtell. As for the 'tactic' you used, I still do no know to what you are referring.


Happymeal wrote:
[*]@Don Juan - Describe the benefits of a partial town reveal vs a full town reveal please. Then reveal. [/list]


On top of this, UDC had not revealed as of this point in time while not receiving any criticism or questions from SF (he also did not think full reveals were good). Considering SF liked the plan introduced by ZZ so much, one would assume, he'd be all over UDC for this. Why? Because UDC had not agreed with the idea of full reveals despite ZZ's plan working significantly better with full reveals. Why is it that you pursue both Don Juan and me for these factors, but not UDC?

Because it was my first freaking post of the day, and I was engaging with what Don Juan had just explicitly said. I don't believe UDC had posted recently, or with as much adamant opposition to that plan, as you two. Additionally, my vote was on UDC until the end of day yesterday - I literally tried to lynch him. Out of the three of you, UDC, and Don Juan, I wanted to lynch you or UDC yesterday, and, as all evidence shows, emphatically did not want to lynch Don Juan.
Happymeal wrote:On top of that, he had no intentions of pursuing this. I looked throughout the game on Don's posts and he never once came back to him. Not a single time did Don actually respond to SF's concern which made him actually vote for him as a lynch candidate yet SF never once pursued this area afterward.

Of course he did. He followed the towns plans. That resolved my concerns entirely. And, once again, I did not vote for him as a lynch candidate yesterday.
Happymeal wrote: In fact, he eventually went on to state that Don was a "stupid townie".

You put that in quotes, but I guarantee 100% that I never said that. Unlike some players, I do not insult the intelligence of others in thread because it poisons the atmosphere of the game. You are literally, intentionally, misquoting me here.
Happymeal wrote: This, to me, looks like a mafia attempting to get town cred, especially with the disparity in attitude between his original stance on Don (huge lynch candidate vs. his end stance (bad townie). Why did your attitude change so much? )

Once again, this is just flat out wrong. He was never a huge lynch candidate to me, at all. Zoomzip spent a good portion of yesterday trying to pull me over to his lynch, and I was strongly against it. My attitude didn't change.

I hope that clears up your concerns.
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby shadowface » 04 Nov 2016, 23:14

Happymeal wrote:He pursued another target. So, instead of using that very adamant and aggressive behavior to pursue a mafia (from his perspective), he drops his attitude completely and goes after another guy entirely. A town member who has had a history of being aggressive and taking a stance like the above would try to continually show the town that he is right and that I am mafia because according to SF's perspective, I displayed the exact traits a member of the mafia would. It's not like I remained pigheaded. I actually stated I would follow the plan today. I backed off completely from my original stance, but SF was not pursuing, he was not making a case, he was not trying to convince people. For a guy over - committing to one aspect of the game, he seems to lack that same commitment to his major scum reads.


Happymeal, this is referred to as vote consolidation, and it is a very real thing in first-past-the-post systems such as Playdip Mafia and the American Election. If you, for example, want to stop Donald Trump next week, you're not going to vote for Gary Johnson. You'll vote for Hillary Clinton, even if you like Gary Johnson better. This is what I did at the end of Day 1: I wanted to stop Don Juan from getting lynched, so I switched my vote to Harb who I thought was a better candidate between the two, even though he was not my #1.
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby Harb » 04 Nov 2016, 23:27

An eventfully uneventful Night. Interesting.

@sjg - What are the alternative explanations to the "justy = scum" interpretation? I assume if we lynch justy on this your reasoning and he comes up town you'll want to talk about it, so maybe do it a little more extensively prior to the "he's just trying to save himself" discussion.

@jordan - Well, scumHarb is flattered but I'm still kinda stuck for who else you read to determine that I in particular was hard to read. I'll even be more specific here. What did you see in say, UDC or sjg that makes them easier to read?

Additional note: This Day's timing is going to be awful for my participation. Hopefully a fraction of my time will be enough.

Currently working on what exactly I think the kill-less night and the various reactions to it mean.
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby Harb » 04 Nov 2016, 23:29

Oh, I stomped SF1.
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 04 Nov 2016, 23:30

Jordan767 wrote:Happymeal, I stomped shadow as promised.


Do you still claim to be medium?
It's true I'm nervous, but why do you think I'm mad?
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 04 Nov 2016, 23:31

[quote="Happymeal"][size=200]shadowfriend1
It's true I'm nervous, but why do you think I'm mad?
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 04 Nov 2016, 23:31

shadowfriend1
It's true I'm nervous, but why do you think I'm mad?
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby Happymeal » 04 Nov 2016, 23:32

Also, I bought a Ukulele today. A nice addition to my ever growing stack of instruments.
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby Jordan767 » 04 Nov 2016, 23:38

Harb wrote:An eventfully uneventful Night. Interesting.

@sjg - What are the alternative explanations to the "justy = scum" interpretation? I assume if we lynch justy on this your reasoning and he comes up town you'll want to talk about it, so maybe do it a little more extensively prior to the "he's just trying to save himself" discussion.

@jordan - Well, scumHarb is flattered but I'm still kinda stuck for who else you read to determine that I in particular was hard to read. I'll even be more specific here. What did you see in say, UDC or sjg that makes them easier to read?

Additional note: This Day's timing is going to be awful for my participation. Hopefully a fraction of my time will be enough.

Currently working on what exactly I think the kill-less night and the various reactions to it mean.


I feel like you just look incredibly townie, or at least your town and scum games look very similar in most cases. I'm getting this out of A Shot in the Dark, plus comments by Keirador (and maybe others, I forget) about Plague and Lambert Simnel.

I feel like UDC is hard to call out because he does Things That Scum Don't Do as opposed to looking townie. Idk, it just seems different to me.

In all the reading I've done, sjg has been town, except for triple, where he was modkilled with several votes on him. So I haven't seen strong scum sjg to my knowledge.
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Re: Bigger, Medium, Smaller Mafia Day 1

Postby Jordan767 » 04 Nov 2016, 23:40

Happymeal wrote:
Jordan767 wrote:Happymeal, I stomped shadow as promised.


Do you still claim to be medium?


Yes I do. Why shouldn't I?
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