Sanctions

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Re: Sanctions

Postby echotwo » 02 Dec 2010, 13:35

bb82 wrote:
raphtown wrote:However, as far as unranking it goes that is really up to the mods. bb82, I can bring it up to them if you would like, and perhaps with that we can establish some sort of precedent.


Unranking makes sense to me, considering a few players are/were classicists, the respect issue, the NMR/surrender, and non holding when it happened. I don't hold any belief that it will be unranked as all would have to agree,


I have no particularly strong views as to whether or not the game be unranked. But I'm yet to see any persuasive reason why it should be unranked.

which a classicist has already not agreed.


[citation needed]

I just thought it would be fair to hammer.


Being fair to hammer is the last concern of mine, given that he ruined the game (a) for one person, by joining it, when seven players had already assembled in the IRC-channel, one of whom then had to miss out on the game, and (b) for the other six people, by leaving an hour before the end. If fairness to hammer is the only reason to unrank, I'd be strongly opposed.

Crunkus wrote:This is a ridiculous situation.

I really hope it is rectified, otherwise it serves as an example of how the methods employed are sometimes counterproductive to the stated goals of the Classicists.

I do hope that people will use more judgment in the future before nominating people for sanctions.


Crunkus: I'd like to know what exactly you think unreasonable about my nomination, given that a game was ruined by someone who left two hours into a three-hour live game, having already taken a place from someone else who was waiting for the game to start.
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Re: Sanctions

Postby bb82 » 02 Dec 2010, 16:29

Crunkus wrote:This is a ridiculous situation.


Yes it is.

It usually is when someone has trouble comprehending another's perspective.


Hammer was just trying to be nice with starting a live game. He was the 7th. We didn't get 8 until the game was either started or being joined by players. He had no NMRs and RL happens. We also said we would hold if something came up.
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Re: Sanctions

Postby echotwo » 02 Dec 2010, 18:24

bb82 wrote:
Crunkus wrote:This is a ridiculous situation.


Yes it is.

It usually is when someone has trouble comprehending another's perspective.


Hammer was just trying to be nice with starting a live game. He was the 7th. We didn't get 8 until the game was either started or being joined by players. He had no NMRs and RL happens. We also said we would hold if something came up.


My memory of the evening in question differs, insofar as I remember there being seven people there when LH arrived, and he was the 8th, who arrived after the game had been created, and took a place that someone else would have enjoyed. If I'm wrong on this, then my apologies to LH and to everyone whose time has been wasted by this thread.

I don't remember agreeing to hold if something came up: I also find it unlikely that I would have agreed to such a condition, given the time of day at which the game was taking place for me.
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Re: Sanctions

Postby bb82 » 02 Dec 2010, 18:43

He couldn't have been the last one because we talked about holding in the lobby way before the game started. We were desperate to get a game going. When Hammer left the game due to RL issues, Germany mentioned that all hold as promised. Italy declined and the discussion ended.

It would have been a much better game if we just held and waited for Hammer to return. I do agree that it would have been a pain to enter holds for the next hour.
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Re: Sanctions

Postby echotwo » 02 Dec 2010, 19:01

bb82 wrote:He couldn't have been the last one because we talked about holding in the lobby way before the game started.


You might as well say, he couldn't have been the last one because it snowed here yesterday.
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Re: Sanctions

Postby raphtown » 02 Dec 2010, 22:52

echotwo wrote:
bb82 wrote:He couldn't have been the last one because we talked about holding in the lobby way before the game started.


You might as well say, he couldn't have been the last one because it snowed here yesterday.


I think he means that he was discussing the 'holding' agreement with LH way before, therefore implying that he was not the last player to join. At this point I am pretty convinced that Lucifers was not guilty, as the only evidence to the contrary seems to be a misunderstanding of what actually occurred.

Unless someone wants to argue to the contrary I am considering the case closed. And for future reference I ask that a sanction nomination be made only if the accuser is pretty much certain a violation occurred. It can be quite distressing to the accused, especially if he did nothing wrong. Misuse of the sanction clause can be considered a respect violation as well.
The Classicists are a group dedicated to reducing player NMRs.
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Re: Sanctions

Postby Lucifers_Hammer » 05 Dec 2010, 07:54

echotwo wrote:
bb82 wrote:He couldn't have been the last one because we talked about holding in the lobby way before the game started.


You might as well say, he couldn't have been the last one because it snowed here yesterday.


Normally, I have a rule "Never argue with an idiot, I will sink to his level and he will beat me with his experience". I shall relax that rule here.

Echotwo put both his clown shoes in his mouth here and would rather beat himself to death with them rather than admit he made a mistake. This was a game I initiated but was late joining due to RL. In fact BB82 and cspeiker subtracted 1 karma point for me doing late. Upon my explaining the reason behind my tardiness, both apolgized for be a bit hasty.

I joined the chat room there were 6 people there and I was the seventh (named Hoover when I came in). The game then started. Valoriane popped in shortly after looking to join but as the game was underway, he left the chat room.

When I had to leave again, I both stated why publically and privately to most if not all the players. To Italy (echotwo I presume) I specifically stated that I would enter HOLD orders as that was what everyone else was doing. Italy (echotwo) stated "that would be a devious ploy to have everyone HOLD and you move". I spent the most time talking to Italy before leaving.

At this time nojoseph PMed me asking to take my place. I had also PMed Valoriane if he could take over my position - but he never responded back. Coordinated with nojoseph, I surrendered my position and left the game (still have the email from PlayDip saying I surredered with timestamp consistent with when I left). Why I wasn't surrendered is something to take up with super_dipsy.

It appears Italy was peeing his pants in anticipation of all the free SC's he would get rather than earn them honestly so he refused to enter HOLDS knowing in advance I had already done so. So rather than admit he shot off prematurely without gathering all the facts or having the decency to actually PM me with a "WTF", he started braying about the forums on sanctions that had to be done. In fact the only PM I received from echotwo was some to the effect of "hey, just to let you know, I exercised my superior intellect with a brilliant post in the forum - in case you wanted to respond" ...

The snow comment illustrates the wonderful and compelling arguments that can be expected from echotwo ... which really is why I didn't enter into this debate. My conduct in Diplomacy games has always been honourable and have several times advertised for replacement players to take over surrendered positions rather than employ echotwo's "HOLY (*&$# FREE SC'S FOR ME, HOPE I CAN GRAB THEM BEFORE SOMEONE CAN TAKE OVER THE POSITION."

Generally, I have great respect for most players and enjoy playing here ... especially against those that have beaten me so I can match wits against them in a future game. Echotwo leaves a lot to be desired braying on about ruining games, left hour early, etc ... when he knew full well why I had to leave, knew in advance my orders were to HOLD and took advantage of the situation. A true Classicists he is ... a beacon that should draw others here.

If I should happen to be wrong and echtwo isn't Italy, my apologies ... however, Italy still took advantage of a situation that I never would have. Thus if he is a Classicist, I am not.

Lucifer's Hammer

PS BB82 ... start another gunboat game, I look forward to pounding you this time :mrgreen: ... was a lot of fun last time.
Last edited by Lucifers_Hammer on 05 Dec 2010, 20:23, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Sanctions

Postby Crunkus_old » 05 Dec 2010, 17:08

echotwo wrote:
Crunkus: I'd like to know what exactly you think unreasonable about my nomination, given that a game was ruined by someone who left two hours into a three-hour live game, having already taken a place from someone else who was waiting for the game to start.


The fact that you assumed there could be no possible reasonable excuse (which is demonstrably untrue) for such behaviour and did not really seek to engage LH on the subject prior to accusing him publicly. Classicists deserve more benefit of the doubt. We all do, but a classicist is by definition, supposedly, someone who would not normally engage in such behaviour without a good reason. It would have cost you nothing to private message LH on the subject before putting him up for sanctions. You were upset and acted rashly. It is understandable, but recognizing that publicly after placing the discussion there prematurely would be...classy.

The new provision you have inspired for consideration in regard to sanctions is well placed. It is not consistent with a classicist in my view to assume the worst and call for a sanction without so much as attempting to contact the accused when you are possibly ignorant of significant facts relating to the situation.
(sigh)
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Re: Sanctions

Postby Lucifers_Hammer » 05 Dec 2010, 20:51

Crunkus wrote:
echotwo wrote:
Crunkus: I'd like to know what exactly you think unreasonable about my nomination, given that a game was ruined by someone who left two hours into a three-hour live game, having already taken a place from someone else who was waiting for the game to start.


... You were upset and acted rashly. It is understandable,....


The reason echotwo was upset was banter he got from me in game ... I guess the tag "MORON" struck a little too close to home ... nice to know that he can get so rattled in game. Useful bit of intel to apply against echotwo in the future if anyone has the misfortune of playing him.
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Re: Sanctions

Postby bb82 » 05 Dec 2010, 20:57

Perhaps it's best to lead by example? We all make mistakes.


AND I got bel. Muahahahaha :P.
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