was it the right result of the moves?

If the judge doesn't behave correctly or you found another problem, report it here!
Forum rules
Bugs
In addition to the general Forum Guidelines (see here: viewtopic.php?f=130&t=15441), there are additional rules for posting in this forum.
1. Members should read the ‘Bugs Forum Guidelines’ thread.
2. In rare situations members have been known to post false bug reports in order to affect the game. This is considered cheating.
3. Please don't post information that might be detrimental to the game, such as revealing the power who sent a message. If further information is required by Admin to investigate the bug, you will be asked to provide it.
If the game a bug may have occurred in is anonymous, including Gunboat and Public Press Only, it is best to send a Private Message to the SITE HELP! group or to post using the Dolph Shtoss account rather than break anonymity.

was it the right result of the moves?

Postby danhadnagy » 18 Jan 2019, 18:54

Hi lads,

I thought i was a veteran player but i don't understand the below result.
gameid 150872

England:
Baltic Sea MOVE Berlin -> resolved
Kiel SUPPORT Baltic Sea to Berlin -> resolved
Holland SUPPORT Kiel to hold -> resolved

Russia:
Berlin MOVE Kiel -> Dislodged by F Baltic Sea - Berlin

Austria:
Munich SUPPORT Berlin to Kiel -> Supported unit has failed

****
I expected that would be a bounce.
what do you think?
danhadnagy
 
Posts: 20
Joined: 11 Jan 2014, 14:51
Location: Hungary
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1163)
All-game rating: (1197)
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: was it the right result of the moves?

Postby Strategus » 18 Jan 2019, 19:10

The trick is that a unit can't cut the support of a unit that is attacking it. Thus, Kiel is not cut, and Berlin is not supported to hold, so it is dislodged.
The Devil makes work for idle forces

Better to have fought and lost, than never to have fought at all
Actual Platinum Classicist
I did WDC 2017

Just say "NO!" To carebears and kittens
User avatar
Strategus
 
Posts: 1764
Joined: 30 May 2015, 14:30
Location: England
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1583
All-game rating: 1730
Timezone: GMT

Re: was it the right result of the moves?

Postby Shyvve » 18 Jan 2019, 19:20

danhadnagy,

Had England's order been, Baltic Sea SUPPORT Kiel to Berlin, then indeed Mun s Ber-Kie would have bounced with Bal s Kie-Ber (2 to 2).

But given the orders you list, Mun s Ber-Kie bounces against Hol s Kie ("Supported unit has failed"). Kie s Bal-Ber thus succeeds, as A Ber is attacking a unit which is providing support for an attack on Berlin (meaning Ber-Kiel doesn't cut the support which Kiel is providing for F Bal's move to Berlin).
An Oldie and Gold Classicist. Moderator for the Classicist group.
User avatar
Shyvve
Premium Member
 
Posts: 371
Joined: 31 Dec 2016, 20:10
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1353
All-game rating: 1383
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: was it the right result of the moves?

Postby NJLonghorn » 18 Jan 2019, 23:16

Strategus wrote:The trick is that a unit can't cut the support of a unit that is attacking it. Thus, Kiel is not cut, and Berlin is not supported to hold, so it is dislodged.


This is one of the hardest rules to understand, and the hardest one that occurs with any frequency. Strategus's explanation adequately explains the result in your situation, but it is imprecise. As a self-certified rules buff, I feel compelled to spell it out more thoroughly.

As we all know, the general rules is that cutting support merely requires an attack (successful or not) on the supporting unit. I like to think about this as meaning that an attacked unit is too distracted to provide support for another unit doing something different. But, as Strategus points out, there is an exception to the general rule for when the attempt to cut is made by the unit against which the supported attack is being made. For example, in your scenario, Berlin's attack on Kiel does not distract Kiel's attention away from helping Baltic take Berlin. Any way you slice it, you have two units (Baltic and Kiel) together attacking a single, unsupported unit (Berlin). That should and does succeed.

What Strategus doesn't mention is that there is an exception to the exception. When the unit under attack actually succeeds in dislodging the unit offering support, the support is cut. Consider a slightly modified version of your scenario:

England:
Baltic Sea MOVE Berlin
Kiel SUPPORT Baltic Sea to Berlin

Russia:
Berlin MOVE Kiel

Austria:
Munich SUPPORT Berlin to Kiel

Notice that I removed the order "Holland SUPPORT Kiel to hold". Thus, Berlin succeeds in dislodging Kiel 2-1, and Kiel's support of Baltic to Berlin is cut.

Usually, this distinction is unimportant. In the above scenario, given what we know, Berlin succeeds in moving to Kiel, leaving Berlin wide open for Baltic to waltz in 1-0. But suppose there was also an army in Silesia attacking Berlin. That would bounce the attack from Baltic 1-1.
Classicists, Aspiring Bronze Silver Gold Bronze Member
I have never surrendered and never NMR'd, and hope to keep that alive. Never mind, the perfect run has come to an end. Dammit, DAMMIT, DAMMIT.
User avatar
NJLonghorn
Premium Member
 
Posts: 287
Joined: 07 Sep 2017, 23:41
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1171)
All-game rating: (1439)
Timezone: GMT-5


Return to Bugs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests