NEW MARIO WORLD

[Thungbard]

Hmm, strange it still works for me, the only explanation would be if you deleted and renamed it, then my computer would think it's still there.

Anyway, Although Boo's ability has the most writing it's the only Ability I don't fully understand.

How long does he stay invisible? Just till the end of the Year? or for 2 turns if he decides to go invisible starting in the fall? or can he stay invisible for like 10 turns and walk all the way down to Peach's castle and go "Here I am", then wait one year and go invisible again?

The turn he goes invisible can he still perform other moves? or is turning invisible his move for that turn? if it is that seems like a waste since if he only stays invisible for the year, that doesn't give him the ability to walk through people like you suggest, since he'll go invisible, then take one step onto a person and become visible again.

Can he still use Support moves while he's invisible? or just walk around?

Suppose I decide to sacrifice King Boo during my build phase to rebuild someone else's unit, do I get to build a unit to replace it? For example, I have 3 centers, 2 Armies and 1 King Boo, If I Sacrifice King Boo to Rebuild Mario I'd be down to only 2 Armies and still 3 Centers, So do I get an Extra build the build phase I sacrificed him? Also what happens if I decide to be a Jerk? I tell my supposed Ally I'm going to rebuild his Hero, and then I conveniently forget and not sacrifice my King Boo, that way the unsuspecting Ally tries to rebuild his hero and just wastes one of his builds that phase since I didn't sacrifice him. Or even worse the opposite happens, I sacrifice to rebuild someone and they decide to not take advantage of it, making me have just sacrificed my hero for no reason at all.

Factoring in special powers, certain countries I still think are quite worse than most.

Boo has a good opening position, but is too close to Bowser and Guppy, whose powers reduce Boo to not being guaranteed a center the first year, whereas before he was guaranteed 2, now he can't get anything unless people let him.

Mario is guaranteed 3 Build the first year and is the only country that can guarantee 3 Builds.

Donkey Kong seems pretty weakly positioned with a power that's difficult to use effectively, and probably only captures Burning Tide Coast the first year unless someone volunteers to let him into a center.

If I was a betting man I'd say Mario walks away with the win, with Wario closely behind in second place. While Guppy becomes a thorn in Boo's side and just keeps whizzing around that cape stealing Boo's and Yoshi's home centers.

[JoBoBS]

Thungbard, there is an element in this game that you're forgetting called "diplomacy" the part that strategy alone will fail you because you actually need allies. Mario is not guaranteed three in the first year, I'm not sure how you're getting that.

As far as Boo's abilities go, he stays invisible for the whole year, he can go invisible and move in the same turn, he can support moves, he can't go ten turns, I'm not sure how you got that idea when the rule specifically said, "You can not use this ability two years in a row, they must alternate, but you can decide what year to use the ability, provided there is at least one year between every use of the ability."

If Boo sacrifices himself, he does not get to build another fleet army or hero, even though he has more SC's than units, as I said... "but in that build phase, but no army, fleet, or hero can replace the sacrificed King Boo until the next build phase."

If you decide to be a jerk and not do what you say you're going to do... that's a part of Diplomacy, bub. People do that in the game, even in the classic variant. But... who would pass up the opportunity to rebuild their hero? What's the use in that?

You're only setting up a select few situations as if every country is going to be hostile towards everyone from the very beginning. This is simply not the way Diplomacy is played.

And if I may say, the way your tone is coming off is a bit abrasive. It seems you're trying to help, but the way you're coming across is a bit harsh for some reason. Is it just me?

I see Mario's position, but all I can see he is guaranteed is Bubble Blaster and Freezie Coast. Donkey Kong can contest Chain Chomp Cave, and Yoshi can contest Penguin Land. Where is the third?

Boo is guaranteed Freezeflame Coast. Where is the contest there? I don't think this is really all that unbalanced. Donkey Kong is guaranteed Burning Tide, and can likely get Fiery Stronghold, but that's situational.

Have I covered everything?

[Jus]

Ok, right before I submitted this, I saw that Trouble had already posted something... but I'll go ahead and post this anyway.

If I was a betting man I'd say Mario walks away with the win, with Wario closely behind in second place. While Guppy becomes a thorn in Boo's side and just keeps whizzing around that cape stealing Boo's and Yoshi's home centers.

That is a possible scenario, just like "Italy whizzing around the Mediterranean stealing France's and Turkey's home centers" is. Of course, you need to factor in the "diplomacy" aspect of the game (negotiation can turn something predictable into quite the opposite), and the fact that Guppy would wish to use his powers to secure a second build for himself (either Topman Tribe Island or Dusty Dune Island, one of which he can nab with his fleet). I doubt he would be too obsessed with attacking Boo in the first year. If he bounces Boo in Wavy Waters, he prevents himself from getting an extra build at the same time he prevents Boo from doing so.

I'm not totally clear on the technicalities of Boo's ability... Trouble should be able to answer your questions regarding that.

Boo has a good opening position, but is too close to Bowser and Guppy, whose powers reduce Boo to not being guaranteed a center the first year, whereas before he was guaranteed 2, now he can't get anything unless people let him.

Remember that Bullet Bill's Borough is Bowswer's only chance for securing a second build. This means that, even if Bowser uses his special ability to bounce Boo in Freezeflame Coast (in the first turn), Boo will still be able to secure Freezeflame Coast in the Fall. That is, if Wario doesn't bounce him.

There is the option of extending the borders of Bouldergeist Mansion east to Freezeflame Coast, so Boo can set up support into FC... that's definitely something to consider.

Mario is guaranteed 3 Build the first year and is the only country that can guarantee 3 Builds.

After thinking about this a little (and admitting I wasn't familiar enough with a couple of the heros' abilities when I arranged the territories), I've decided that this area could use a little work. Mario himself should not be able to land next to Chain Chomp Cave in the first turn. You're right; in this case, Mario would be guaranteed 3 builds. Maybe we could make a non-center touching Bubble Blaster, Chain Chomp Cave, Monkey Mines, Forest of Illusion, and Donut Plains. We'll see what Trouble thinks.

These are my thoughts, anyway. We definitely appreciate the feedback... I'm not used to factoring in special abilities like this, since I usually make real-world variants. It's great to know what other people think.

[JoBoBS]

Okay, I see Mario's three builds now. We can remedy that. I like what Jus said, so I'll definitely consider that.

[Thungbard]

And if I may say, the way your tone is coming off is a bit abrasive. It seems you're trying to help, but the way you're coming across is a bit harsh for some reason. Is it just me?

I see Mario's position, but all I can see he is guaranteed is Bubble Blaster and Freezie Coast. Donkey Kong can contest Chain Chomp Cave, and Yoshi can contest Penguin Land. Where is the third?

Boo is guaranteed Freezeflame Coast. Where is the contest there? I don't think this is really all that unbalanced. Donkey Kong is guaranteed Burning Tide, and can likely get Fiery Stronghold, but that's situational.

Have I covered everything?

For that I apologize, if I seemed a bit abrasive.

Anyway here's what I was thinking:
Mario's Fleet takes two step to Freezie Coast without anyone able to stop him I think we agree on that much at least for the first build.
The other two Units, Toad walks to Bubble Blaster without contest for the second center, and Mario replaces him in Donut Plains in the Spring, and then is supported into Chain Chomp at a power of 3 units, doesn't Toad and a Double sized mushroom fed Mario equal 3? Donkey Kong can't realistically stop him, unless he uses 2 of his units to Bounce super sized Mario and also talks Yoshi into cutting Toads support instead of Yoshi picking up Penguin Land. Which wastes 3 units moves in order to gain nothing for Yoshi or DK other than to stop Mario from getting a 3rd center, thus I believe Mario getting 3 centers the first turn is practically guaranteed unless DK and Yoshi are willing to work together and sacrifice capturing open centers in order to prevent the third. ... Hmm, I take it back earlier I missed the fact that Monkey Mines borders Donut Plains, and will need Mario to protect his homeland should DK's first move be to send Diddy to Monkey Mines. Indeed I admit I was quite wrong about Mario's positioning.

As for the Boo not getting anything the first year, this is where I came up with it:
Bowser tells his Fleet to go to Matter Splatter Mansion while Bowser breaths fire on Freezeflame Coast, Boo get's bounced if he tries to walk there, and also get's bounced if he tries to walk to Matter Splatter Mansion in an attempt to Support a unit into it in the Fall by having King Boo walk to the Secret Ghost House. So to reiterate, Boo can't walk there if someone's breathing fire on it, nor can he get into position to support someone into Freezeflame Coast, that's why he's not guaranteed anything. I don't think I missed anything in the Boo situation, unlike Mario, which I admit I was wrong. ... I take that back again, perhaps I misunderstood Bowser's ability? Can he blow fire to 2 adjacent locations or the way I understood it was to places up to 2 steps away. I suppose I am wrong on all accounts here.


Hmm it appears several people posted in the time it took me to type this, oh well, just pretend this is above Jus's post. Strange how people agreed with me to some extent, and I disagreed with myself.

[Thungbard]

If I was a betting man I'd say Mario walks away with the win, with Wario closely behind in second place. While Guppy becomes a thorn in Boo's side and just keeps whizzing around that cape stealing Boo's and Yoshi's home centers.

That is a possible scenario, just like "Italy whizzing around the Mediterranean stealing France's and Turkey's home centers" is. Of course, you need to factor in the "diplomacy" aspect of the game (negotiation can turn something predictable into quite the opposite), and the fact that Guppy would wish to use his powers to secure a second build for himself (either Topman Tribe Island or Dusty Dune Island, one of which he can nab with his fleet). I doubt he would be too obsessed with attacking Boo in the first year. If he bounces Boo in Wavy Waters, he prevents himself from getting an extra build at the same time he prevents Boo from doing so.

For that I was thinking, if Guppy's willing to make Boo upset by bouncing him the first turn out of Wavy Waters, He'd be sitting in Deep Dark Sea Cave since he doesn't have to bounce back to his starting location according to his powers description.

Then having bounced Boo's fleet in the spring he could still capture Topman Tribe Island in the fall by taking 2 steps from Deep Dark Sea Cave, or since he's already upset Boo, use his 2 steps into Ghost Pirate Madness and Boo's Harbour for the steal of Boo's home center as he walks out. Boo's Fleet practically has to stay anchored in the Harbour if Guppy is against him, and he's practically Guppy's only immediate neighbour so if Guppy's going to fight anyone it's probably going to be Boo, rather than having to send his units to distant locations.

Or even instead of Bouncing him in the spring Guppy can go to Ghost Pirate Madness, and be in striking position of all 3 of Boo's Home Centers in the Fall.

[JoBoBS]

Sorry, I guess it would help for one specific rule: King Boo, while invisible, can move through Bowser's fire... so he can go through his own unit (as mentioned in the first rules post he can go through all units) and land where Bowser was breathing fire. Then, at the end of the turn, he's there in an unoccupied space, not bounced. Fancy, fancy.

As for the issue with Guppy and Boo, you may be right, so maybe we'll end up switching Guppy and his fleet's position, or perhaps just start the game and see how it ends up working out.

[Jus]

Sorry, I guess it would help for one specific rule: King Boo, while invisible, can move through Bowser's fire... so he can go through his own unit (as mentioned in the first rules post he can go through all units) and land where Bowser was breathing fire. Then, at the end of the turn, he's there in an unoccupied space, not bounced. Fancy, fancy.

As for the issue with Guppy and Boo, you may be right, so maybe we'll end up switching Guppy and his fleet's position, or perhaps just start the game and see how it ends up working out.

I like the first part. We should either do that, or arrange Boo's territories like I suggested before.

Now, concerning Guppy: this could easily be taken care of by bouncing Guppy all the way back after a bounce, instead of just half-way. My intention for the Guppy/Boo relationship was somewhat of a France/Italy one, where the two don't have as much to do with each other as they do with other nations. Thus, I want to make the attack-on-Boo option somewhat less attractive to Guppy. Of course, I could be wrong, if this area looks balanced enough. Just let me know.

[Thungbard]

I think the reason Guppy was allowed to not have to bounce all the way back to where he started while Wario's nearly identical power but only usable on land instead of water always bounces back to the beginning, was probably because Trouble thought Water is somewhat less good than land since it has less supply centers on it, that's why I think guppy is being allowed to stay in the middle territory.

The problem with that though is, Water is no good for capturing centers but it's already a faster mode of transportation than land, so being allowed 2 steps in water is ridiculously fast compared to 2 steps on land.

Just as an example:
Suppose you want to Move from SEA TURTLE ROCKS to BOO WARP PIPE, it takes you 6 steps if you're walking on the coastline or 4 steps if you use the coastline water territories.

So factoring in the speed of water territories, I agree with Jus, Guppy should probably have to bounce back to where he started just like Wario, or something like he can only take 2 steps every other turn.

Right now if Guppy is standing in JUNGLE PUDDLE, he can step into his choice of 12 different Supply Centers. That seems like a lot, but maybe it's just me, since Wario can go to like 9 different centers if he's standing on several places of the map, So Guppy may not really be that much faster.

[Jus]

Question: When Boo is invisible, can he "swap" territories with another unit/hero?