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Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgundy

PostPosted: 15 May 2021, 05:04
by 0wl
Hello all, I've noticed the opening of France bouncing in Burgundy has become quite common but I've come to believe this is a terrible opening and often encourage the French player to make this opening when playing Germany.

When playing Germany I often suggest a bounce in Burgundy with Marseille to the French player. However, rather than moving to Burgundy I move to Ruhr and encourage the Italian player to move to Piedmont. If in addition to this England has a fleet in the channel France could facing a killing blow immediately in the first year.

The army in Burgundy would likely have to cover Marseille in case of an Italian move there.

Then there's the choice of what to do with the army in Picardy. You can decide to leave Brest open risking zero builds or ensure one build by covering Brest with the army but then being unable to build a fleet in Brest. Also if the army in Burgundy has moved to Marseille a fleet build will be impossible.

Also even if England isn't the channel if Marseille is in Burgundy after 1901 France will likely only get one build despite no early aggression from England.

If Italy is in Piedmont the army Burgundy would have to cover Marseille. If Italy is not in Piedmont France can have a chance of two builds by making a supported attack on Belgium which could be bounced if Germany or England support the other in or France could move to Belgium and Munich which also had the risk of being bounced.

I think other openings such as the Majino are better because that ensures two builds if England is not in the channel regardless of Italian aggression. Another interesting opening is Marseille to Burgundy, Paris to Gascony and Brest to MA. This opening also ensures two builds regardless of what Italy's done and assuming England isn't in the channel.

In my personal view I think most players on this site who open to the channel often get quickly screwed by Germany players. Personally I've never seen a game where Germany solod after doing this. I think largely due to them later being surrounded by a strong France and Russia.

I think the majority of English players here don't open to the channel because there seems to be an anti English metagame among Germany players. On this site I now usually avoid opening to the channel even though it was previously my preferred opening.

I and many others view France as the strongest power in the game, however a lot of this may due to the current meta where a Northern opening by England is the norm.

Best Regards,
0wl

Re: Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgun

PostPosted: 16 May 2021, 06:37
by MasterGR
While I won't get too deep on this, I think that a bounce in Burgundy between France and Germany in principle empowers England, as unless France also moves to Pic, then there is nobody contesting Belgium. I do think it's also advantageous to Germany, as in my view it's beneficial for Germany not to have a saying on Belgium in 01. Let England and France figure it out, most likely Belgium will lead to conflict between them. Plus in F01 Munich can move to Ruhr, Kiel to Hol (assuming Germany opened to Den) and then Germany starts 02 with two armies on Bel plus another army in Munich. A pretty strong position for the German player, that sets it up really well for a war against France if so desired.

One thing to note, 0wl you wrote a few ways in which the openings below may prevent France from building fleets. I'd note that that's actually not beneficial to Germany, if possible it's obviously in Germany's interest that France builds more fleets than armies. But overall I agree with your point that a bounce in Bur is beneficial for Germany, also for the reasons I recounted above.

Cheers,
MasterGR

Re: Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgun

PostPosted: 16 May 2021, 13:33
by sock
I’ve played this game awhile. I don’t think I would call MAR to BUR a common French opening, and frankly, I can’t understand why anyone would pass up an automatic build in Iberia to do so (especially when you can access BUR with PAR). In addition, England should never go into the Channel as an opening. The standard “Yorkshire” opening ensures you can still protect LON in case France moves into the Channel, while preventing a Russia block of Norway. And if you really have an alliance with Germany, the Yorkshire opening allows England an opportunity to pick up BEL as well.

Re: Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgun

PostPosted: 17 May 2021, 01:24
by DirtyHarry
In addition, England should never go into the Channel as an opening.


Sock, after the game we played together, you know I love you man, but do you also know that advice conflicts with the advice of 1998 World Champion Chris Martin? He hasn't been around here in a while, but I see if I can get him to respond :-)

Re: Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgun

PostPosted: 17 May 2021, 01:51
by davey48016
sock wrote:I’ve played this game awhile. I don’t think I would call MAR to BUR a common French opening, and frankly, I can’t understand why anyone would pass up an automatic build in Iberia to do so (especially when you can access BUR with PAR). In addition, England should never go into the Channel as an opening. The standard “Yorkshire” opening ensures you can still protect LON in case France moves into the Channel, while preventing a Russia block of Norway. And if you really have an alliance with Germany, the Yorkshire opening allows England an opportunity to pick up BEL as well.


France can keep the guaranteed Iberian build by moving Paris to Gascony. In the event that Germany insists on a Burgundy bounce and Italy moves to Piedmont in violation of a DMZ, Paris to Gascony and Marseilles to Burgundy keeps the guarantee of getting Spain regardless of whether Germany actually moves to Burgundy. Whereas Paris to Burgundy and Marseilles to Spain does not.

Re: Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgun

PostPosted: 17 May 2021, 03:11
by DirtyHarry
Chris pointed me to the article he wrote about what to do with the unit in London:

http://uk.diplom.org/pouch/Zine/S2003M/ ... _Long.html

Re: Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgun

PostPosted: 17 May 2021, 16:10
by condude1
To be fair, any time that Germany moves Burgundy in Spring '01, Italy moves Piedmont, and England moves ENC, France is probably completely roadkill. It has its place, like any opening, but it really depends on opening negotiations.

Re: Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgun

PostPosted: 19 May 2021, 22:01
by sock
davey48016 wrote:
sock wrote:I’ve played this game awhile. I don’t think I would call MAR to BUR a common French opening, and frankly, I can’t understand why anyone would pass up an automatic build in Iberia to do so (especially when you can access BUR with PAR). In addition, England should never go into the Channel as an opening. The standard “Yorkshire” opening ensures you can still protect LON in case France moves into the Channel, while preventing a Russia block of Norway. And if you really have an alliance with Germany, the Yorkshire opening allows England an opportunity to pick up BEL as well.


France can keep the guaranteed Iberian build by moving Paris to Gascony. In the event that Germany insists on a Burgundy bounce and Italy moves to Piedmont in violation of a DMZ, Paris to Gascony and Marseilles to Burgundy keeps the guarantee of getting Spain regardless of whether Germany actually moves to Burgundy. Whereas Paris to Burgundy and Marseilles to Spain does not.


Agreed, but I also have to agree with Condude. A 3 on 1 attack doesn't bode well for France anyway.

Re: Common but bad French opening Marseille bounce in Burgun

PostPosted: 20 May 2021, 16:16
by sock
DirtyHarry wrote:Chris pointed me to the article he wrote about what to do with the unit in London:

http://uk.diplom.org/pouch/Zine/S2003M/ ... _Long.html


I understand where Chris is coming from, but for my money, England is one power that must absolutely get a build its first year or it will be either dead or irrelevant to the game. The Yorkshire opening has two big advantages. Russia can't block you from Norway and if France was to move into the Channel, the army in York easily protects LON while you still get a build. I also sense that a majority of the time, Germany and France aren't ready to commit to an aggressive posture from the start, because they get two easy builds without needing to antagonize anyone. And France really needs to get its fleet into Spain for maximum flexibility. If you stay out of the channel, England retains a lot of flexibility, too, as it works out its allies from among Germany, France, and Russia, with the benefit of seeing what else is taking place on the board. Just secured a solo with England, btw, which I will chalk up more to luck than general skill, but the final map does demonstrate the right geographical targets for England that Chris highlights.