Turkey and Austria

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Turkey and Austria

Postby AKFD » 02 Jun 2018, 04:38

Greetings!

I'm not sure if this has been answered, but is the Austria-Turkey alliance really the most impossible alliance in the game?

My first game here involved a Turkey-Austria alliance. I was a noob at that time so Turkey kept giving me advice. Things seemed fine until in 1904 or 1905 when he stabbed me in Budapest.

Is it really impossible? Are they natural enemies?

I hope you can answer this! :)
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby mhsmith0 » 02 Jun 2018, 05:02

They can work... but it's hard to make it work long-term.

If it's successful, Turkey will almost inevitably have multiple opportunities to stab Austria since Austria must send his armies north and west to attack the stalemate lines, leaving Austria usually vulnerable to a successful Turkish season where Turkey builds and sends an army from Con to Balkans, and/or just sends his fleet builds into Adriatic Sea and then slams into Trieste or Austrian holdings (if any) in Italy.

Also importantly, an AT alliance is pretty easy to stymie right around MAO. Where someone like Russia as an eastern power can build fleets in STP, it is IMPOSSIBLE for A/T to eliminate all other powers if it can't breach MAO... and it's usually very easy to set up an unbreakable wall in MAO. Scandinavia is equally impossible to breach with armies

AT IS quite strong early game against Russia and/or Italy... but I think you're much likelier to see a stab from one of AT to the other, or a 3-way draw with a western power (basically whoever can block up MAO), and sometimes 4-way draws instead.

One interesting example with a VERY successful early AT was
https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=141623
even with the early success, all it took was one turn where Turkey decided to stab Austria instead of forcing MAO because he was nervous about Austrian growth potential... and suddenly a possible A/T two-way draw turned into a 4-way draw instead.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby AKFD » 02 Jun 2018, 05:21

But is it impossible to win with that allaince with both Austria and Turkey still allies?
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby mhsmith0 » 02 Jun 2018, 05:33

Depends on what you mean by "win"

It's very very difficult to make a 2-way draw with that alliance

It's entirely doable to make a 3-way draw with that alliance

It's pretty easy to make a 4-way draw with that alliance (it's pretty easy to make a 4-way draw with almost any alliance, tbh)

Also, It's difficult to have multiple people "win" if you view a game as win=solo :P
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby jay65536 » 02 Jun 2018, 16:15

Rather than post my opinion, which would be a longer theoretical explanation of "any alliance can work if you do it right", I'll just link you to this game:

https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=139117

This game featured some highly rated, highly regarded PlayDip regulars along with two players from the competitive FtF community. It ended in an A/T 2way. If you look at the move history, you will see A/T were allied for almost the whole game, and that there were, in theory, solo opportunities for at least T, and you could make a case A had some as well. (They chose to stick with the 2way plan.)
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby Strategus » 02 Jun 2018, 22:06

AKFD wrote:Greetings!

I'm not sure if this has been answered, but is the Austria-Turkey alliance really the most impossible alliance in the game?

My first game here involved a Turkey-Austria alliance. I was a noob at that time so Turkey kept giving me advice. Things seemed fine until in 1904 or 1905 when he stabbed me in Budapest.

Is it really impossible? Are they natural enemies?

I hope you can answer this! :)

If you are Austria, and I am Turkey, I promise not to stab you. Honest injun.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby Jegpeg » 03 Jun 2018, 00:14

As other have said Austria and Turkey can work together but are likely to find it impossible to get total 17/17 split but a two way is rarely the outcome of any alliance.

It is entirely feasible for Turkey and Austria to get to about 26 units between them from this point they can either:
1. Agree a 3 (or 4) way draw with the remaining power(s)
2. Stab the allay for the solo
3. Stab the allay with the help of the third power to either go for a two way and if the opportunity arises a solo.

All of there outcomes I would see as being a successful AT alliance, the object of an alliance is improve you own powers strength but not necessarily to the end of the game. If AT get to 20+ SCs between them it is a successful alliance even if one party decides at some point its usefulness has come ot an end.

Having said that the difficult with an AT alliance is it is very difficult for Turkish units (especially armies) to get to the front line without going close to Austrian centres. One approach is to have Turkey build exclusivley fleets and and control all the coastal SCs (possibly even Trieste) while Austria builds only armies and to control the inland SCs (plus places like Berlin and Belgium that Turkish fleets can not get to. However it is done however I believe Austria is always more vulnerable to the stab than Turkey (while it is difficult for Turkey to break though into MAO it is also hard for the third party to get through the other way, similalry the Turkish home centres are more difficult to get to than Austria's).
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby jimbobicus » 03 Jun 2018, 01:03

I'm a big fan of A/T alliance. I think it can work very well for both players to put them into a strong position come 1905. Whenever I'm either Austria or Turkey, it's generally my opening of choice - other things being equal. (Although things don't always work out that way). If they work together against Russia in 1901/2 and then against Italy, it can set them both up quite nicely.

Although it's normally not an alliance you can go to the end with. (There will be exceptions - as jay has pointed out) but in general, in the longer term you should be looking for an ally over the other side of the board - either England, France or Germany.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby Oh Cheese » 03 Jun 2018, 03:36

jay65536 wrote: "any alliance can work if you do it right"


Saying that the A-T alliance cannot work is exactly the same as saying England-France cannot work, or Germany-Russia cannot work. The G-R is perhaps the only alliance I would EVER attest cannot work, but I use this example to make a point - if two players are uniting, who communicate well, protect themselves well, and are more concerned with 'having an enjoyable game' rather than being seduced by all the fame, riches and lifelong fortune brought by stabbing an ally, then sure it can work.

The A-T is actually one of my favourite alliances in the game! If Turkey builds fleets only and Austria builds armies only, the two countries can go about their business largely independently of each other. Once Russia is put out of the game, there is much for Turkey to plunder in the Med, while Austria focuses on driving through Germany and Italy. Naturally, these building restrictions need a little flexibility, but if I'm Austria, in this alliance, I'm pointing out to Turkey that he needs no more than 4 or 5 (tops) armies, in the whole game. I agree not to build in Budapest, unless necessary, and we agree to station troops in whatever positions we feel comfortable with for our own protection. Bounce(s) get(s) arranged, and if the two players stick to that, then sure it can work.

Too many people who play this game don't value an alliance. They think that they HAVE TO go for the solo, that it is a prerequisite of the game. If I'm with an ally and he leaves himself exposed, I'm going to stab him. If I'm with an ally who communicates well, reasons well and plays well - both offensively and defensively - then I'm going to respect him as as a good player, and seek to share a two-way draw with him - knowing that stabbing him unnecessarily could cost me the game.

The holy grail in this game, which everyone seeks, is an honest, reliable, trustworthy ally. Anyone who tells you this (or any) alliance cannot work is, by nature, an uncompromising stabber, and therefore not the ally you seek.

They say this game isn't about luck? Of course it is! It's the luck of the draw in respect of the players you are neighbouring at the start of the game.
Last edited by Oh Cheese on 03 Jun 2018, 06:36, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Turkey and Austria

Postby AKFD » 03 Jun 2018, 03:48

Oh cheese,

True. I have never seen a G/R alliance.

It's actually more impossible imo
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