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Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 21 Jul 2016, 18:24
by MagellanMabalach
I've seen this pair win once in an online game. But typically I've seen these powers fight each other, often with both losing out to other powers. Has anyone else encountered this alliance?

The way it went down was an initial Juggernaut vs. A/I setup, a black sea bounce and then a lepanto movement. Then to my surprise (I was Germany), the Turkish player turned on Russia and the Italian stabbed Austria. They were able to hold Russia in place, Italy in Vienna and Budapest, and Turkey in the black sea and Rumania. I was working with France against England, and staying out of Russia to keep the east stalemated. The I/T managed to outflank the Russian player and Italy sent a fleet over to France. Eventually it was France and I against Turkey (who had most of Russia's SCs) and Italy (who got out in the med early. We ended up losing because it took too long to take England and France's previous NAP with Italy in the med left him with not enough naval power to stop mid-game naval deployment by Italy.

This alliance makes sense to me as long at Turkey is a land power, and Italy focuses on moving West. Italy takes Austria, Turkey the Balkans, then Italy fights Germany and supports Turkey against Russia. The spread is something like Turkey gaining Russia, Balkans and Scandinavia, with Italy gaining Austria, France, Spain. Germany and England are divided by both. I think a few factors necessary are - an initial A/I alliance, a G/F against England. It might not even matter too much what is going on in the west, as long as there isn't a western triple. The biggest drawback is getting Turkey on board, I imagine it will always seem an option for him to stab, and it takes a long time for him to move his armies into position from his home territory.

The timing of gains by both powers seems to allow for parity throughout the game. Once austria is dealt with it will be a slow roll for Italy to attack france, but also a slow conquest of Russia by Turkey. Once these countries lose substantial territory to the I/T. It should be relatively easy to outmaneuver the remaining powers.

Again I've only seen this once, and of course it was a situational success, but am wondering if anyone else has seen this accomplished or if anyone else has theories on how this alliance can operate (or not).

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 21 Jul 2016, 18:29
by Don Juan of Austria
I've played as Italy, and come into a two way draw with a Turkey. So yes, I've encountered it. ;)

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 21 Jul 2016, 18:40
by MagellanMabalach
Cool. Do you have an AAR of it? JW

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 21 Jul 2016, 19:33
by Zosimus
I played an Italian-Turkey alliance in 97262. Conundrum

I quickly entered into an agreement with Italy to crush Austria. As Turkey, I made a standard opening and convinced Italy to open with the Obriani Attack.

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Italy got two builds in the fall, a result that is pretty good for Italy. So it was a success, I think.

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I built an army while Italy built a pair of fleets. I believe that the alliance can only go well if Turkey stays with the one fleet he started with, and I adhered to that principle. In the Spring of 1902, I moved north with some help from Austria, who didn't realize that I had an alliance with Italy.

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I couldn't hold Rumania, but I got Sevastopol while Italy began to have some problems with a wayward French fleet. Austria's moves force me to build a fleet, but I pledged to keep it moored in Smyrna. In the spring, I kept my word and continued to move against Russia.

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Italy's moves make me uncomfortable, but I stick with the alliance. My fleet stays moored in Smyrna. Italy helps me into Serbia.

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Something is wrong. I can feel it. Nevertheless, I build armies. I am determined to prove that an IT alliance can work.

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Under the terms of our agreement, Italy gets 3 supply centers (Trieste, Vienna, Greece), and I get two (Budapest, Serbia). I knew something was wrong and my spidey sense told me to move Smyrna-Aegean Sea. In retrospect, it was the right move, but I didn't make it. I was determined to be a good ally and to keep my promise. The fleet stays moored in Smyrna, as agreed. Italy takes Greece with the wrong fleet. My fears are confirmed. Italy wants to take me out back to the woodshed.

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I begin to plead in earnest. Haven't I done everything I was supposed to do? Hasn't the alliance paid off? Isn't the 3 for you 2 for me split fair? Italy is unmoved. He insists that I have better chances for explansion than he does. He refuses to go against France. He teams up with Russia. I guess right to leave Constantinople open.

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The deal is off, so I build a fleet in Constantinople.

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I use the best tactics I can, but at the end of the year, I've lost a center.

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More tactics, but at the end of the year I'm another center smaller. Turkey does what it does best––stubborn defense.

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More tactics, and at the end of the year I haven't lost anything. My troops are a bit out of place though.

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France reaches out to me, and I agree that I'll do whatever he wants as long as he includes me in the final draw. France decimates Italy. I cut the support in the Ionian Sea.

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France is very generous. He encourages me to grow so that I won't feel like he might cut me out of the draw. I am grateful. I attack Italy and Russia. I pick up a center. I reposition myself in the Black Sea.

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Russia refuses to accept the three-way draw that excludes him. He wants us all to agree to a French-English victory. France continues his let-my-allies-grow campaign. He supports England into Warsaw. I take more centers from Russia.

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Russia and Italy are completely eliminated. Game over.

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Thoughts on this game:

I really think that the alliance could have gone far had Italy turned and gone after France with the strength he had from the conquest of Austria. I was very willing to put Italy into Vienna and to continue my thrust north. I feel good that Italy's unwillingness to continue the alliance led to his death.

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 21 Jul 2016, 20:18
by Don Juan of Austria
MagellanMabalach wrote:Cool. Do you have an AAR of it? JW

Am I JW? No, I didn't write one, but I wouldn't mind briefing you.

Impressive France in that game, Zosimus!

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 21 Jul 2016, 21:28
by MagellanMabalach
I think you are absolutely right. Italy needed to go against France. By moving into the Aegan, he assured his own demise by surrendering the Western Med to the French Navy. At that point Germany was still in the game and Russia was on the ropes.

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 21 Jul 2016, 22:28
by MagellanMabalach
I am curious, Don Juan, how you managed to get that draw as Italy, since Z gave a Turkish perspective. In short how did you expand and divide the map?

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 22 Jul 2016, 00:20
by Zosimus
There are no reasonable two-way draw positions between Italy and Turkey. I can only assume that they care beared it or that the third person surrendered and they quickly agreed to a two-way draw rather than race for 18.

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 09:11
by dubfin
I usually feel uncomfortable as Italy In IT. At some point Turkey will be locked behind me and it is far too easy for any reasonable western power to keep him out of StP and Germany. Even if our alliance is in the lead at some point I just fear him getting bored.

Re: Turkey/Italy Alliance?

PostPosted: 28 Jul 2016, 18:00
by Zosimus
You see? That's the thing. It's not that IT doesn't work. It's that no one will give it a chance.