Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS [Updated 26 April]

A 7-game, 7 countries tournament, that started on 1 August 2010. No resolution.

Game 3.1 RESULTS

Postby rick.leeds » 22 Oct 2010, 21:13

1. echotwo - GERMANY 18 SCs WINNER
2. super_dipsy - AUSTRIA 9 SCs
3. melchett's tache - TURKEY 4 SCs
4. raphtown - ITALY 3 SCs
E. Zebb - FRANCE 0 SCs
E. crazychef - RUSSIA 0 SCs
E. TheCraw - ENGLAND 0 SCs

Explanations
- E=eliminated (which has no bearing other than as a third tie-breaker).

LEAGUE TABLE is on page 1, second post.
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby super_dipsy » 25 Oct 2010, 16:37

I sort of expected a AAR from comments in the PC 3.1 game, but apparently we are using the thread. I guess I better speak up for my diabolical play since everyone says it is my fault ;)

I played Austria - love it. Lots of people to make friends with.

So here is how Germany got his solo.

I started off with a decision to try to work with Russia. In the cases where I have succeeded with Austria, it has generally been by teaming up with Russia quick and getting Turkey out of the way while I keep a nice non-aggression pact with the centrals. All went rippingly well until move 1 when Russia stabbed me. He came back to me with many apologies, explained it was all a terrible mistake, allied with me again and stabbed me. At the same time I notice he was doing exactly the same with Turkey. At this point, I realized Russia was a pathological stabber, because these stabs were not mortal, just simply stabbing for fun. Therefore I now have a problem. No matter what I do or negotiate, Russia will continue to stab me, meaning I cannot turn to face anyone else. What do I do?

At this stage, Turkey has been badly damaged by the final Russian stab against him. I decided that I had no option but to try to remove Russia as quickly as possible so that I could then concentrate on facing West. I rescued Turkey, and started on the demolition of Russia with Germany's help. But it was clear that with England collapsed and France/Italy playing footsy under the table with each other, Germany was going to be the power to beat. As I started work on Russia, I started getting panic notes from France/Italy/Turkey/Russia worrying about the German advance. But my problem is still the same as it was above. We could ally, make a stalemate line, and hold Germany at 15/16, but then Russia would just stab me in the back because he was doing it for fun rather than gain. Therefore that line of action dooms me.

So my only (extremely slim) chance was to become Germany's slave and hope for a 2-way draw. If I had been germany, I would have gone for it, because the carrot was a pretty bloomin large one in my opinion - the opportunity to absolutely incense the solo-only boys and cause someone to suffer an apoplectic fit. Particularly with the opportunity to actually 'refuse' the win when it was clearly there for the taking would be enough to persuade me it would be just too good a chance to miss :twisted: But just my luck, Germany was being played by the esteemed echotwo, an avowed soloist. And to be honest that was the result I expected as soon as England collapsed, France / Italy decided to drown each other and Russia showed his credentials as a pathological stabber, but at least my play gave me a tiny chance of getting something, instead of zero chance which would have been the case if I tried to join up in a multi-way alliance.

Well, it sounded good logic when I played it in my head.... ;) Sorry all (and your welcome, echotwo)
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby Zebb » 25 Oct 2010, 17:03

super_dipsy wrote:At this point, I realized Russia was a pathological stabber, because these stabs were not mortal, just simply stabbing for fun. Therefore I now have a problem. No matter what I do or negotiate, Russia will continue to stab me, meaning I cannot turn to face anyone else. What do I do?


Oye, I wish you had told me this before I invaded Italy. I think this game could have ended much better for the both of us if you and I had worked together more closely.

Anyway, not much to say on my end. Initial diplomacy went very well with England, Italy, Turkey, and Germany. Russia and Austria were both rather hush-hush about, well, anything, so I guess that pre-disposed me towards not working with them later in the game. That came back to hurt me.

Worked out the standard Piedmont to Africa DMZ with Italy, and me and Turkey agreed that whichever of us got attacked by Italy, we'd help them out once he overcommitted himself in that direction. As for the west, my goal was pretty simple: take out one of the two as quickly as possible, and then rush the rest of the board. Preferably taking out England first, since I've always had a rough time of it breaking through the HOL/RUH/MUN line. Turned out Germany was the bigger talker, so I went with him. We snookered England into thinking we were working for a WT, so the invasion went pretty damned smoothly, and he fell in pretty short order.

After that, I went south, as per the previous agreement. I sent out some feelers toward Russia regarding working together agaisnt Germany, but those were largely rebuffed. Guess he didn't expect I would stab Germany, and figured we'd continue our partnership and jointly invade Moscow or something. Turkey, on the other hand, was all for me invading Italy, so the decision was made. Me and Germany shook hands, and went our separate ways.

It's just that my seperate way was a hell of a lot more distant than his seperate way.

So in short order, the knife came down. Meanwhile, I continued to throw good moves after bad by attempting to fuel a desperate homeland defense with Italian centers. It didn't go too well. Then when he helped Austria into Piedmont, my fate (and the game's) was pretty much sealed. I sent a few frantic "Oh my god, what have you done?" messages, but the damage was done. I give huge credit to Raph for letting bygones be bygones when we tried to stop him at the last moment, but it was too little too late.

Kudos to echotwo for an excellent stab, and to raph for a stellar defense.
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby raphtown » 26 Oct 2010, 03:38

Its nice to get other people's perspective on this game. It makes their behaviour more understandable...

I started off with a strong alliance with Austria and a DMZ with France. A central including Germany was soon engineered as well. It seemed like I was with some reasonable smart players, and so I decided to play it safe and go with an attack on Turkey with Austrian help. Though the first year went well, an 'accidental' Austrian fleet build seemed to throw those plans out the window. Luckily, having played a couple as Italy I had left 2 men near Venice and was able to plan a destroy of the fleet with Austria's help. This whole episode left me a little suspicious. However, I played along because I still believed my best bet in this game was an attack on Turkey as it was quite obvious a Jugger was forming (there were some funky moves, but I thought this was just an attempt to confuse us) and that it needed to be stopped.

Yet a german army in Tyrolia forced me to delay my assault to hold Venice while he moved back. It was at this point that I began to become truly suspicious of Germany's motives. He seemed to be buddying up with everyone and was quite prying. I shared my fears about him with France and Austria, hoping that it would get the former to keep up his guard against Germany and not attack me as they were almost finished with England at this point.

Unfortunately, all these delays had made it so that Turkey was still holding up and we were thus making no progress in the Balkans. This probably made France think he could take me on and so he moved against me as I was relatively small (5 centers) and committed to fighting Turkey. What dismayed me most was not that he had stabbed but that he was leaving his back wide open to Germany, whose solo potential was growing by the season. I guess I could have left France roll me so that had enough men to defend against Germany, but that involved me dying (not good!). So I decided to pull out from the Eastern fight and defend against France. If I became a tough enough nut to crack he might reconsider.

In this case Germany helped me, as his stab on France in 1904 made the latter pull a few of his men back. I made truce proposals to France in the hopes that he would back off, but he broke those twice in a row continuing to assault me as Germany rolled through his undefended homeland. The only good news at this point was that Austria was holding off the Jugger. Trouble was he seemed to be more allied with Germany than with me.

In 1905, I reluctantly committed to helping Austria hit Marseilles as I was still nominally in the Central Alliance and France was still hitting me very hard and my survival took priority over anti-solo protocols. Meanwhile the Jugger fell apart, Austria took the Balkans, and Turkey stabbed Russia for Constantinople and Sevastopol with Austrian help. As I saw it, Germany was the main enemy at this point, but with Austria as his firm ally, France going bonkers, Russia in ruins, and Turkey walled in (A-T went back to war right after killing Russia) and sneaking around in my backyard the game was basically lost.

I made attempts at convincing Austria that he was handing the game to Germany, getting France to just stop attacking me and hit Germany, and convincing Austria and Turkey to stop fighting, but in the end Austria just attacked me with Germany help and Turkey remained in his land in pure defense mode. France did finally pull back but it was way too late. I made moves to counter Germany but I had only limited forces. Eventually Turkey caught on to what was going on but he was far off and low on fleets and ended up just taking out France's lone Italian possession that I had let him keep (not being productive big picture-wise there!). Even on the phase that Germany soloed Austria, Turkey, and Russia were still fighting... Sigh...
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby echotwo » 26 Oct 2010, 10:28

raphtown wrote:Yet a german army in Tyrolia forced me to delay my assault to hold Venice while he moved back. It was at this point that I began to become truly suspicious of Germany's motives. He seemed to be buddying up with everyone and was quite prying. I shared my fears about him with France and Austria, hoping that it would get the former to keep up his guard against Germany and not attack me as they were almost finished with England at this point.


I'm writing a full EOGS, which I'll most likely post in the relevant section in due course, but on two points of fact:

1. You knew about my move to Tyr, and it was an agreed bounce. I wanted it for my own safety. You forgot to change your orders to bounce me. You can hardly blame me for that. For what it's worth, I wanted you to move east sooner, and not to have to defend yourself against my army in Tyrolia (hey, I never even wanted to be in Tyrolia, I simply asked you to bounce me since Ven and Mun were both planning on holding in any case), so that France could be persuaded to make the slow journey across the Med, so that I could stab him.

2. You were hardly unaware of the plan for me to 'buddy up with everyone'. I'd made it quite clear in three-way negotiations that I thought our best plan as a central triple was for me and France to destroy England, and Italy, Austria and Russia to destroy Turkey, at which point Germany and Italy turn on France and Austria and Germany turn on Russia. So of course I was on good terms with F, as well as with A and I.
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby raphtown » 26 Oct 2010, 11:31

echotwo wrote:
raphtown wrote:Yet a german army in Tyrolia forced me to delay my assault to hold Venice while he moved back. It was at this point that I began to become truly suspicious of Germany's motives. He seemed to be buddying up with everyone and was quite prying. I shared my fears about him with France and Austria, hoping that it would get the former to keep up his guard against Germany and not attack me as they were almost finished with England at this point.


I'm writing a full EOGS, which I'll most likely post in the relevant section in due course, but on two points of fact:

1. You knew about my move to Tyr, and it was an agreed bounce. I wanted it for my own safety. You forgot to change your orders to bounce me. You can hardly blame me for that. For what it's worth, I wanted you to move east sooner, and not to have to defend yourself against my army in Tyrolia (hey, I never even wanted to be in Tyrolia, I simply asked you to bounce me since Ven and Mun were both planning on holding in any case), so that France could be persuaded to make the slow journey across the Med, so that I could stab him.

2. You were hardly unaware of the plan for me to 'buddy up with everyone'. I'd made it quite clear in three-way negotiations that I thought our best plan as a central triple was for me and France to destroy England, and Italy, Austria and Russia to destroy Turkey, at which point Germany and Italy turn on France and Austria and Germany turn on Russia. So of course I was on good terms with F, as well as with A and I.


I was afraid I would do this. I got confused with another game of mine. :oops: My memory is terrible (and I'm only in college god damn it)...

A review of the messages shows me you are indeed correct, but I now recall that I did not appreciate your forcing of the move upon Tyrolia upon me and a general distrust between us stalled my assault on Turkey as I didn't want you barging through my backyard.

But on that second point of yours, I definitely got the sense you were going above and beyond what was required for the benefit of the Central Triple. Especially my talks with France gave me the clear impression that you were just waiting to pick sides. Maybe I was being overly paranoid but that is what I saw.
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby echotwo » 26 Oct 2010, 12:12

raphtown wrote:A review of the messages shows me you are indeed correct, but I now recall that I did not appreciate your forcing of the move upon Tyrolia upon me and a general distrust between us stalled my assault on Turkey as I didn't want you barging through my backyard.


I remember that. You'd been very, very secretive all game (I don't know if you always play that way, or if it was because of the way our communications had developed in F01 while I thought you and Russia were considering a carve-up of Austria). And I still don't understand why you were unwilling to bounce in Tyr that move. I mean: since Mun and Ven were both (so we said) planning on holding, and we were both finding it difficult to trust the other, an arranged bounce seemed to me to be the ideal solution. When you rejected it, I started wondering what else you might have planned for that army, which made me even more suspicious. Hence my announcing that I was going to move to Tyr, for my own protection.

But on that second point of yours, I definitely got the sense you were going above and beyond what was required for the benefit of the Central Triple. Especially my talks with France gave me the clear impression that you were just waiting to pick sides. Maybe I was being overly paranoid but that is what I saw.


Oh, I was definitely not looking out purely for the interests of our CT: my aim from the beginning of the game was to solo. I mean: that's my aim in every game, but it's particularly my aim as Germany, and even more so in a tournament in which everyone plays every country once: I was (and still am) working on the assumption that whoever doesn't solo as Germany will be playing catch-up. But with that caveat, I was completely committed to our CT as a means of getting into a position where I could solo, if for no other reason than the fact that I needed the majority of the French centres. Soloing without stabbing my French former ally would have likely involved getting to Rum and Sev, which would have been a much harder task. So yes, you're right that I wasn't only looking out for the CT, but I was certainly committed to it. And once it became clear that Austria would more or less help me to a solo, I had a nice strategy worked out for the end-game.
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby Cryhavoc » 26 Oct 2010, 16:27

echotwo laying out his shop for a championship crown eh? The gauntlet well and truly thrown down! This is going to be an interesting winter!! :D
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby raphtown » 26 Oct 2010, 21:49

echotwo wrote:I remember that. You'd been very, very secretive all game (I don't know if you always play that way, or if it was because of the way our communications had developed in F01 while I thought you and Russia were considering a carve-up of Austria). And I still don't understand why you were unwilling to bounce in Tyr that move. I mean: since Mun and Ven were both (so we said) planning on holding, and we were both finding it difficult to trust the other, an arranged bounce seemed to me to be the ideal solution. When you rejected it, I started wondering what else you might have planned for that army, which made me even more suspicious. Hence my announcing that I was going to move to Tyr, for my own protection.


If I recall correctly, those initial communications made me a little wary of you, making me a little more secretive than I usually am. I guess you saw this as me planning an attack on Austria but I actually was just reluctant to share information with you. So you prodded further, reinforcing my opinion that you were too meddlesome, and increasing my own secrecy another notch. Hence a vicious circle.

I think I was also quite busy at times, limiting my ability to fully analyze and respond to the situation, which you might have also seen as secrecy.
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Re: Premium Classic Championship: RESULTS

Postby TheCraw » 27 Oct 2010, 05:32

I lost. :cry:
Very clever, Mr. Smart...
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