Automatic Surrenders

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Automatic Surrenders

Postby rick.leeds » 07 Sep 2009, 20:47

Due to the discussion Pedros started in http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2 I thought I'd see what the site rules said. I used the tab on the front page and found the House Rules section blank (which is a shame as it could carry all the information about cheating in it, or a link to the forum's topic about what cheating is by Diplomat as well as the answer to this question) and I guess no-one ever found the time to do it ;) Then I went to the Announcements Forum and found where the current points system was introduced and this had a section on surrendering and the -1 points for it: http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=373&p=1923&hilit=surrender#p1923.

- Here it says a player is automatically surrendered after 2 turns. This is, in practice, 3 turns (I'm guessing the developers put in 2 turns grace).
- In practice turns do not include Retreats and Builds, and I'm guessing - again - that this is because they are not counted as separate to the main Spring and Fall turns. This makes sense as not every player has to place orders in those phases. I know it is after the third main orders phase that surrenders occur.
- There is no indication of whether the number of turns in consecutive or cumulative.

And this is the question: does an automatic surrender happen upon the third consecutive NMR received or the third NMR in a game? When it is discussed it seems we're assuming it is the third consecutive NMR and I guess this is because when a player is automatically surrendered it is because usually a result of consecutive non-orders. But this is not necessarily the case.

Does anyone have a definitive answer? Has anyone been surrendered for failing to place main movement orders in three seasons that weren't consecutive? (admittedly, we're unlikely to get a "Yes" to that question here ;) ). Has anyone been in a game where a player was surrendered as a result of cumulative rather than consecutive NMRs?

It's something I'm going to look out for... though I hope it's not somethingI'll get to find an answer for in games I'm in ;)
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Re: Automatic Surrenders

Postby rick.leeds » 07 Sep 2009, 23:22

OK decided to test this on the Beta site.

Germany is my control country. I will use it to move pieces each time, including builds.
Austria will move every move order but will not fill in builds.
Turkey will move every other turn and will fill in builds.
Russia will always NMR.
The other countries have surrendered.
I have made this a Live game so shouldn't take too long to get the results ;)
I'll edit this post to let you know what happens.

OK Fall 1902 order phase has just started and Russia, entering no orders, is still in the game. Should have been surrendered by now. Will have to see if he's (me's?) still active after 1902.

No Russia's still there. I'm beginning to wonder if "t" players can't be surrendered? I'll hang on for a couple of turns now and see what happens to Turkey, who should be surrendered soon if the rules do apply. If not I'll have to think of something else.

Wrong again. Spring 1903 is when Russia is automatically surrendered. This took FIVE turns, even ignoring Builds/Retreats. A bug with the Beta site? A different set of surrender rules on that site? Fall 1903 is also the turn Turkey should be surrendered if the 3 NMR rule is for cumulative orders rather than consecutive. I will also stop building for Turkey. (I'm impressed by how well I'm doing as Germany and Austria - walking through the opposition they are ;) )

Spring 1905 and Turkey has now missed 4 cumulative turn orders (all Fall) and is still there. I'm also going to make Austria NMR all the time now and see how many turns it takes.

Spring 1906 and Turkey's still here. That's FIVE sets of Fall orders missed and no builds or retreats ordered since 1903. It's beginning to look as if the NMRs must be consecutive. My brain is slowly dying now. The thrill of beating myself up is fading.......

The game stopped being Live after the Spring 1907 orders. This was also the turn after which Austria was eventually surrendered automatically; that took four consecutive turns. Turkey was still there.
Last edited by rick.leeds on 08 Sep 2009, 04:23, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Automatic Surrenders

Postby AlphaTangoEcho » 08 Sep 2009, 00:08

shouldn't you also have on country who NMR's every other turn?

to test whether it is cumulative or consecutive?
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Re: Automatic Surrenders

Postby rick.leeds » 08 Sep 2009, 00:15

AlphaTangoEcho wrote:shouldn't you also have on country who NMR's every other turn?

to test whether it is cumulative or consecutive?

This should be covered by:

rick.leeds wrote:Turkey will move every other turn and will fill in builds.

If Turkey isn't surrendered after the third Fall season, I'll stop filling in Builds and see what happens.
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Re: Automatic Surrenders

Postby rick.leeds » 08 Sep 2009, 04:13

To be honest I'm not sure what I've learned from this other than it does seem that NMRs need to be consecutive. The number of game turns needed to surrender the countries doesn't seem to fit the 3 NMR rule, although this might be just a failing in the Beta site programming or just how the Beta site works with test accounts. All surrenders - including those of Russia and Austria - are recorded as Spring 1901 in the Beta site in-game Shoutbox in this game. I think that to make any firm conclusions it will need to be tested on this site. I'll have a think and come up with something.

I wouldn't suggest playing yourself for 4 hours. Spend your time doing something more fruitful. Sort your underwear drawer out or something ;)
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Re: Automatic Surrenders

Postby Pedros » 08 Sep 2009, 14:52

rick.leeds wrote:To be honest I'm not sure what I've learned from this other

Actually Rick it looks as though you/we've learned something very important - on the Beta site at least it isn't consistent. Russia took 5 turns, Austria only 4.

Clever thinking this - the Beta site test - has it been done before? Unfortunately I never managed to get in to the Beta site when Fog of War was over there, so I can't use it - which is a pity because I'm trying to decode the Country Preference system but am having trouble getting players (plug - all of you reading, PM me for details)
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Re: Automatic Surrenders

Postby rick.leeds » 08 Sep 2009, 16:42

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