Sweden

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Sweden

Postby madhippy » 04 Aug 2009, 11:36

Ive been looking at the map for some time, and I came to a conclusion shouldnt sweden have an east and west coast. Without that coast system that we have in places like bul. and spain, wouldnt you be able to sail into sweden from the gulf (landing on its east coast) then in the next move move to the Ska. (on the west coast) as if you moved right over all the land in between the two coasts.

If Im not mistaken then, to move in the way I discribed above you would have to move F gulf - sweden (EC), then F sweden - denmark (it connects and there is a passage through), and then F denmark - ska.

Tell me how im wrong here please, I just dont understand the logic of skipping over denmark like if wasnt there, isnt it the same reason that there is a country in the way that causes fleets in areas like spain and bulgaria to move the way they do?
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Re: Sweden

Postby Filcon » 04 Aug 2009, 12:04

I would think its because either that sweden has the coast all around, except where norway is and sweden has an canal right through whole sweden. Though im not fully sure when it where built so i will check wiki now, if you wanna do it to check for "Göta Kanal".

I checked it now, 26 september 1832 it where done, so i believe its the canal that is the answer.
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Re: Sweden

Postby Pedros » 04 Aug 2009, 13:46

I think it's more because you can sail on the sea right through from Skag to Baltic - unlike say Bulgaria, where a chunk of Turkey is a land barrier. In other words, you can sail right along the coast of Sweden but you can't in Bulgaria without leaving Bulgaria and entering Turkey
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Re: Sweden

Postby Filcon » 04 Aug 2009, 15:36

Why make it so easy ;)
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Re: Sweden

Postby rick.leeds » 04 Aug 2009, 15:57

The difference with Bulgaria is obvious: it is land-linked to Constantinople. It has also been suggested elsewhere that you should be able to sail from Black Sea-Aegean Sea without stopping in Con. However, the link between Black/Aegean was always of strategic importance: Constantinople controls the Straits so the need to move through Con is historically accurate. This links to the Bulgaria question because the coasts of Bulgaria are split by Constantinople. There is no sea-link between the two coasts.

Spain is different because there is a sea-link between the two coasts: MAO. This means that, logically, MAO can move to either coast. However, there is no land-link between the two coasts. To physically get from Spain(nc) to Spain(sc) you MUST go through MAO or Portugal. In Dip, there's no portage!

Sweden is different. As has been pointed out, in reality you can sail all the way around the coast of Sweden. It isn't acting as if Denmark isn't there, it's acting as a fleet would in real life. The thing about the Den/Swe link is the land link: not the fact that you can move GOB-Swe, Swe-SKA; but that you can move an army from Swe-Den (and vice versa of course)! It is this that bends the physical rules of the game v reality slightly. However, historically, people and armies have moved freely between the two countries so in a historical light it is acceptable.

Of course, the real reason for this is game dynamics. I don't know but I can imagine the trialists for Dip using different movement scenarios to find the ideal ones. The special status of the Den/Swe link (as passable by both fleets and armies), as well as the ability to move from GOB-SKA in two turns, will have been found to be more useful in the game context. That is why it is mentioned specifically in the rules.

As is the status of Kiel. It is usually this province that causes more discussion than Sweden. Hol/HEL-Kie, Kie-BAL? So Holland/Heligoland Bight to Baltic in two turns? Here I think that if I was in charge of game design I would change the existing map (as sacrilegious as that is ;) ). The rules state that the canal link between the two unnamed coasts of Kiel makes this possible. Fair enough: Kiel is just like Constantinople. I would like to see that canal marked on the map, however. I can see the reasons why it isn't (is there room?) but I think that I would put something there if I was looking to re-produce the board now.
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Re: Sweden

Postby madhippy » 04 Aug 2009, 21:07

i get where ur going dude but there are so many things in your post that actually prove my statement, like the fact a ship on spain (nc) has to make a stop at portugal before moving to spain (sc) and the fact that for example the kiel cannal in Kiel (obviously) does not take someone from hol/hel. straight to the baltic, you have to stop in kiel first to use this cannal.

So taking these two facts into account, I believe that a fleet cannot go from seas on its east coast to its west coast so easily. first of all you cant just sail around ignoring denmak because there border between the two are as connected as Kiels with denmark (only allowing a special exception allowing forces that dont look like they should be able to move through to move through). And lets not forget like the kiel cannal someone must pass through denmark to make use of its ability to allow ships and armies to move through at will.
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Re: Sweden

Postby Pedros » 05 Aug 2009, 10:14

madhippy wrote:you cant just sail around ignoring denmak because there border between the two are as connected as Kiels with denmark

Not true. There's a sea passage along the coast of Denmark/Sweden that a ship can sail straight through.

But anyway, those are the rules and always have been. If you want a different rule, start a Variant in the Forum Games. Might be interesting, but it would make the Baltic almost impregnable once Russia and Germany have sorted it out!
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Re: Sweden

Postby rick.leeds » 05 Aug 2009, 11:55

What I'm saying is that the LAND link between Den/Swe is the dodgy one, not the SEA link. If one of them shouldn't be there it is the former. Can't quite see where the idea of the moves GOB-Swe, Swe-SKA is a problem OTHER THAN the fact that, in the game, A(Den)-Swe is allowed.

However, it's all academic. It isn't a site rule, it's a game rule. Ever since I've played the game - initially by board, obviously - the rule has been there. And as I said I think the rule allowing A(Den)-Swe was solely for game mechanics, which allow a little bending of the true geography to make the game more playable.
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Re: Sweden

Postby Pedros » 05 Aug 2009, 13:12

rick.leeds wrote:It isn't a site rule, it's a game rule. Ever since I've played the game - initially by board, obviously - the rule has been there.

I had the very original 1959 edition published privately by Allan Calhamer. It was there then. (As far as I can see, the only change since the original is that the land move NAf-Spa was uncertain on that original board and there was no reference to it in the rules. That was cleared up pretty quickly, and I'm fairly sure nothing else about the board itself has ever been changed)
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Re: Sweden

Postby rick.leeds » 05 Aug 2009, 16:51

Ah Spain to NAfrica - the bane of many a PBM (Play By Mail) zine. For some reason maps in those zines were never able to separate the two either!
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