Time for a Rules Change

Rules for using the site and playing on site.

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby condude1 » 29 Mar 2018, 05:28

I do not have the capability or knowledge to alter a screenshot. Many people are in the same boat. Do I now have to keep that information completely hidden, for fear losing the ability of deception?

It would seriously detract from my enjoyment of the game if there were a silver bullet such as this to see through any lie I tell.

While it's great to say that "Screenshots can't be trusted. no problem!", that doesn't actually resolve my complaint. Say someone asks me to screenshot a message. My options have been limited extremely far to telling the truth or making up some BS reason I can't screenshot things. That's a massive metagamey hurdle thrown up because I can't Photoshop.

Who needs to be diplomatic when you can just be slightly better with a completely irrelevant piece of software?
Telleo wrote:I don't think I've ever met someone who more perfectly embodied Chaotic Neutral than Condude1.


Moderator of the Mafia Subforums!

Silver member of The Classicists!
User avatar
condude1
 
Posts: 8160
Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 03:41
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1368)
All-game rating: (1307)
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby super_dipsy » 29 Mar 2018, 07:16

Condude has precisely summarized the main problem. This is why we have the rule.

It is all very well to say 'people know you can fake images'. First off, let's be clear, it is highly likely that most people on this site would not be able to use a free tool to produce a screen shot that is a fake but looks like an actual screenshot. I will be honest - I am one of them. I have never claimed to be an image expert, but I would not know how to do that other than to buy Photoshop and I am not prepared to fork out for that. Mainly i guess this is because I have no interest in faking images :)

Whether people on site know an image CAN be faked or not is not really a relevant question. Let me give an example. I am sure most people on this site have read enough about hacking to know that it can be done. User identities can be taken over, sites can be compromised, etc.. So does that mean we should allow people who know how to hack a system to hack a player's Playdip account so that they can see all their messages, screw up their orders etc? On the argument provided in the OP, the answer would be yes, because surely it is fair to be able to use whatever talents you have to get an edge. Or to take a less personal example, simply by hacking the site you can get access to unfogged maps. Is that a fair way of using your skill to get an edge?

The point in my mind comes down to a pretty simple one; the game of Diplomacy is surely all about words together with actions on the board. Diplomacy is about using words to persuade people. A few people in this thread and the earlier one (not sure why we now have two) have likened the ability to manipulate images with the ability to use words convincingly, or going into a greyer area, to change a message convincingly before forwarding it. But surely, using words to their maximum advantage and building a persuasive argument through words is what the game is all about. If you want to make the game about who can edit images, or who is the most skilled hacker, or who can sneak into another student's room to access their account and send REAL false messages, then I would suggest that is a different game entirely.
User avatar
super_dipsy
Premium Member
 
Posts: 12194
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (931)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Cliff Dancer » 29 Mar 2018, 07:36

I'm going to make a antiquated argument, and it is posited more as a question as I am not in the generation that played postal diplomacy. In a postal game of Diplomacy, was it considered fair practice to forward the actual letters of one player (or photocopies of those letters if that existed in 1959) to a 3rd player players. If I'm playing as France and receive a letter from Germany, am I "allowed" to put that in a new envelop and forward the letter to England. I think it's fairly safe to say that forgery that mimics someone's exact handwriting is essentially impossible, at least at that time, and so forwarding the physical letter to England would be "prove" of whatever you are trying to say. Similar in a lot of ways to this discussion.

So if the above situation described was considered "allowed" in 1959, then I am OK with screenshots today, but if not, I'm against it. There are progress and advances, but we must be rooted in something.

And to the point of being put at gunpoint to "send me a screenshot to prove it," just say no way, I never send screenshots to anyone, no matter if that's true or not. If someone says forward a message to prove it, that's my blanket statement anyways. I only forward when I think it will be beneficial, usually while playing mediator between two estranged nations :)
CliffDancer, Russia in Colonial 7, Northumbria in Heptarchy XV, The Greys in Invasion Earth
User avatar
Cliff Dancer
 
Posts: 62
Joined: 04 Aug 2016, 05:24
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1390)
All-game rating: (1418)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby joe92 » 29 Mar 2018, 10:45

Whaaaaatttt :o

Dipsy's Undoctored Words.png
Dipsy's Undoctored Words.png (41.06 KiB) Viewed 2135 times
Designer: Emergence, Modern Extended
GM'ing: Nothing

Platinum Classicist

Taking a break
User avatar
joe92
 
Posts: 1059
Joined: 02 Feb 2013, 00:26
Location: Leeds, GB
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1106)
All-game rating: (1721)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Jack007 » 29 Mar 2018, 11:31

Cliff Dancer wrote:I'm going to make a antiquated argument, and it is posited more as a question as I am not in the generation that played postal diplomacy. In a postal game of Diplomacy, was it considered fair practice to forward the actual letters of one player (or photocopies of those letters if that existed in 1959) to a 3rd player players. If I'm playing as France and receive a letter from Germany, am I "allowed" to put that in a new envelop and forward the letter to England. I think it's fairly safe to say that forgery that mimics someone's exact handwriting is essentially impossible, at least at that time, and so forwarding the physical letter to England would be "prove" of whatever you are trying to say. Similar in a lot of ways to this discussion.

So if the above situation described was considered "allowed" in 1959, then I am OK with screenshots today, but if not, I'm against it. There are progress and advances, but we must be rooted in something.

...



Well it is considered allowed, if you know the following story (and who doesn't? ) :

The year was 1966. A 17-year-old boy named Edi Birsan was sitting in his room in Brooklyn staring at a letter he received in the mail. He scanned the same sentence over and over: I am not against a three-way draw and I will not take any more supply centers … On the table in front of him was a Diplomacy game board, showing a game at about the midway point.

Two years before, Edi’s mother had split. She and Edi’s stepfather’s marriage had been on the rocks for years. They’d fight, break up, get back together, lather, rinse, repeat. One day in 1964 she forged Edi’s signature on a bank slip and withdrew $5,000, the entirety of a savings account Edi had had since he was 9 years old, and eventually lit out for California. She stopped off in Tijuana for a Mexican divorce, and that was that.

By his own admission, Edi was introverted and repressed. A year after his mom took off, Edi was in therapy. His therapist saw in him a need to channel his bottled-up aggression, and to learn how to trust people again. She gave him a gift — a board game. I read in a magazine that this was Kennedy’s favorite game. They’d play it in the White House.3 She told him it would help him deal with betrayal.

Edi had a hard time rounding up seven people with whom to play the game. Eventually he discovered that most people played through the mail. He sent off a couple of dollars to subscribe to a magazine (or zine, as they were called) that collected and published the moves submitted by postal players in various games. In between issues Edi would correspond with the other players by mail, laying out his grand plans and coaxing people into alliances. He’d spend hours crafting the perfect letters to his fellow players, carefully choosing his words and taking care to describe how his strategy would benefit them both. He was usually good at it, too. And he prided himself on being a decent and trustworthy ally.

Now here he was, midway through a game he had played well for months. He and two other players stood to share a three-way draw. He read the sentence in the letter again. I am not against a three-way draw and I will not take any more supply centers …

Edi took out scissors and a pen from a drawer and set to work on the letter, painstakingly doctoring it. When he was finished he held up the letter proudly and read it to himself. I am against a three-way draw and I will take three more supply centers … He put the forgery in the mail to the third player. Then he waited.


Hope this helps.
Cheers. :)
Jack007 (xxxx.) unbanned for dubious reasons
Member of the Honorables
There is no greater solitude than the samurai's,
unless it be that of the tiger in the jungle… perhaps…
-bushido
User avatar
Jack007
Premium Member
 
Posts: 1096
Joined: 08 Mar 2014, 17:34
Location: Switzerland (impassable) ⛵ Instagram @jack060856
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1519
All-game rating: 1619
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 29 Mar 2018, 11:39

joe92 wrote:Whaaaaatttt :o

Dipsy's Undoctored Words.png



Well, I guess there you have it. :lol:
"In everything, moderation". ~Aristotle
A proud member of the Whippersnappers,
Bronze Classicists,
Lancer in the PBF cavalry.

Mild Hiatus.
User avatar
Don Juan of Austria
Premium Member
 
Posts: 1239
Joined: 19 Feb 2014, 11:50
Location: South Africa, though given to travel
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1051)
All-game rating: (1148)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Custer » 29 Mar 2018, 11:56

Good one Jack!

The SHIV
First..........get off my lawn! Second........it's a dashing self portrait! Courtesy of The Craw. Third.....I am still SHIV, Keeper of the Stone Tablets! Go Pack! And behold the power of cheese! And one more thing. Say ya to da U.P. eh!
User avatar
Custer
Premium Member
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: 24 Jan 2009, 20:29
Location: Sailing somewhere in Da U.P. in Da Whitehawk and an original Yooper!
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1019
All-game rating: 1230
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby Custer » 29 Mar 2018, 11:57

And I've never forwarded a message.......don't know how......and don't care to.

The SHIV
First..........get off my lawn! Second........it's a dashing self portrait! Courtesy of The Craw. Third.....I am still SHIV, Keeper of the Stone Tablets! Go Pack! And behold the power of cheese! And one more thing. Say ya to da U.P. eh!
User avatar
Custer
Premium Member
 
Posts: 3580
Joined: 24 Jan 2009, 20:29
Location: Sailing somewhere in Da U.P. in Da Whitehawk and an original Yooper!
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1019
All-game rating: 1230
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 29 Mar 2018, 13:06

The point in my mind comes down to a pretty simple one; the game of Diplomacy is surely all about words communication together with actions on the board. Diplomacy is about using words communication to persuade people.


No, Dipsy, Diplomacy is not only about words.

This is the weakest argument regarding screenshots. Diplomacy is a game about using communication to convince others to do what you want them to do. Communication isn’t just words.

If your manner of convincing is to bring actual proof with you, that’s an evidence-based argument. And if the communication you share wasn’t meant for the final recipient’s eyes or ears, then that recipient likewise knows that all their conversations are not being shared in confidence.

And for a game also about stabbing each other in the back, some espionage (within reason) should be permitted. I do think there are other concerns with images that I’ve expressed elsewhere in the thread, but for non-anonymous games, it’s time to stop being so limiting.
Forum Admin & New Variant Development Assistant

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2783
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Time for a Rules Change

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 29 Mar 2018, 16:05

Furthermore:

Image

Image editing is not the only way (or really even the best way) to lie while using pictures. There are lots of options at the fingertips of anyone that can crop an image and use a little creativity.

You don't have to actually know how to edit the picture or image itself.
Forum Admin & New Variant Development Assistant

Variant GM & Designer
User avatar
NoPunIn10Did
 
Posts: 2783
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 00:17
Location: North Carolina
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1000)
All-game rating: (1466)
Timezone: GMT-5

PreviousNext

Return to Site Rules

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests