Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby ColonelApricot » 21 Mar 2018, 20:38

I'm with Jack. The rule is nonsense and is based on an outdated view of online users. Get rid of it. Mods time is better spent on other matters.
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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 21 Mar 2018, 21:34

ColonelApricot wrote:I'm with Jack. The rule is nonsense and is based on an outdated view of online users. Get rid of it. Mods time is better spent on other matters.
.. CA

Don't think it's your call to make what is and what isn't a good use of Mod time.
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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby super_dipsy » 21 Mar 2018, 21:56

So let me ask a question Colonel. You are playing a F2F game of Diplomacy. You find out someone has been recording everything you say on his phone whenever you are negotiating with them, and then sharing it with others as evidence. You cool with that?
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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby ColonelApricot » 22 Mar 2018, 02:24

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
ColonelApricot wrote:I'm with Jack. The rule is nonsense and is based on an outdated view of online users. Get rid of it. Mods time is better spent on other matters.
.. CA

Don't think it's your call to make what is and what isn't a good use of Mod time.

Fair enough. But the rest of my statement stands.

super_dipsy wrote:So let me ask a question Colonel. You are playing a F2F game of Diplomacy. You find out someone has been recording everything you say on his phone whenever you are negotiating with them, and then sharing it with others as evidence. You cool with that?

Never played FTF. But I'd say different ball-game due to the time constraints. Tough to forge a phone-conversation with accurate voice imitations in a time-limited situation. So not a valid comparative.
Let's keep it to online then. I've played a few FOW. That's mostly where the controversy seems to arise. It's a subtle devious game, not for everyone. So why not allow subtle devious means? There's no ethical considerations, clearly. Play in the shark-pool, you're gonna meet sharks. 'Nuff said.

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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby super_dipsy » 22 Mar 2018, 08:15

ColonelApricot wrote:Tough to forge a phone-conversation with accurate voice imitations in a time-limited situation.

And this is exactly the same issue. You can forge the voice conversation (well enough to fool people anyway, since the recording could easily be a bit iffy) but you need the right tools and the skill, particularly to do it fast. That is precisely the same issue as we are discussing here; we have plenty of players who do not even know how to clear their browser cache, let alone edit a picture to make it look convincing. That is why we have the rule. It is to protect the people who wouldn't know how, because there are others that do.
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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby Jack007 » 22 Mar 2018, 08:48

super_dipsy wrote:
ColonelApricot wrote:Tough to forge a phone-conversation with accurate voice imitations in a time-limited situation.

And this is exactly the same issue. You can forge the voice conversation (well enough to fool people anyway, since the recording could easily be a bit iffy) but you need the right tools and the skill, particularly to do it fast. That is precisely the same issue as we are discussing here; we have plenty of players who do not even know how to clear their browser cache, let alone edit a picture to make it look convincing. That is why we have the rule. It is to protect the people who wouldn't know how, because there are others that do.


Sorry but I cannot understand this logic. Why should it be forbidden to prove the truth about what somebody talked to me during the game. And why should it be forbidden to forge such a prove. Of course the recording during an FtF game is allowed, why not? I haven't seen any rule by Callhamer or Hasbro or WDC-gamemaster that would forbid it. (Whether it really would be helpful, is another question, as the others could think that he does it also with them.)

Once again, it doesn't matter if I can do the same technic somebody uses to deceive me or not. Only important thing is if I believe the other player or not. And as this is a game of screwing and stabbing, any player is prepared to get fooled by any method, be it so creative and phantastic as it can be.

Apricot said it entirely right: there are sharks in a shark pool, so get your shields up. I'm always amused how sensible Diplomacy players can be, real Mama's boys. Oh, the poor...

How about a bit of endurance?
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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby gareth66 » 22 Mar 2018, 09:13

There is an angle on this that I think people are missing. It is not possible to post screenshots within the player to player messaging system. Shoutbox, yes, but not in private messages. So to send players screenshots requires use of another platform for communicating (as, indeed, andrewd used in the incident that triggered this discussion). As soon as players start communicating outside the messaging system, communications are no longer necessarily visible to the moderators. And as soon as that happens, there could be all sorts of metagaming going on that moderators would not be able to deal with. Keeping all communications within the messaging system is paramount for the integrity of games, which is why that is such a central feature of our metagaming rules.
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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby NoPunIn10Did » 23 Mar 2018, 03:37

gareth66 wrote:There is an angle on this that I think people are missing. It is not possible to post screenshots within the player to player messaging system. Shoutbox, yes, but not in private messages. So to send players screenshots requires use of another platform for communicating (as, indeed, andrewd used in the incident that triggered this discussion). As soon as players start communicating outside the messaging system, communications are no longer necessarily visible to the moderators. And as soon as that happens, there could be all sorts of metagaming going on that moderators would not be able to deal with. Keeping all communications within the messaging system is paramount for the integrity of games, which is why that is such a central feature of our metagaming rules.


For argument’s sake, what if he just messaged, within the system, a URL for an image, but not anything with the capacity to message back and forth?

What if, instead of a screenshot, one were to link to a diagram of proposed orders or territory divisions?

My point is not that the rules should be changed, but rather that there are already valid and possible use cases for sharing images within the existing message system. The notion that image-sharing cannot occur without an external communication source is incorrect.

Unless you’re treating any link whatsoever as “external communication,” which seems a tad extreme.
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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 23 Mar 2018, 04:38

Jack007 wrote:
super_dipsy wrote:
ColonelApricot wrote:Tough to forge a phone-conversation with accurate voice imitations in a time-limited situation.

And this is exactly the same issue. You can forge the voice conversation (well enough to fool people anyway, since the recording could easily be a bit iffy) but you need the right tools and the skill, particularly to do it fast. That is precisely the same issue as we are discussing here; we have plenty of players who do not even know how to clear their browser cache, let alone edit a picture to make it look convincing. That is why we have the rule. It is to protect the people who wouldn't know how, because there are others that do.


Sorry but I cannot understand this logic. Why should it be forbidden to prove the truth about what somebody talked to me during the game. And why should it be forbidden to forge such a prove. Of course the recording during an FtF game is allowed, why not? I haven't seen any rule by Callhamer or Hasbro or WDC-gamemaster that would forbid it. (Whether it really would be helpful, is another question, as the others could think that he does it also with them.)

Once again, it doesn't matter if I can do the same technic somebody uses to deceive me or not. Only important thing is if I believe the other player or not. And as this is a game of screwing and stabbing, any player is prepared to get fooled by any method, be it so creative and phantastic as it can be.

Apricot said it entirely right: there are sharks in a shark pool, so get your shields up. I'm always amused how sensible Diplomacy players can be, real Mama's boys. Oh, the poor...

How about a bit of endurance?

I suggest you try this at a FtF game then, and see if anyone ever wants to play with you again.

This isn't a matter of "should good players be forced to be less good," it's a matter of trying to keep a level playing field for everyone.

As to the argument of "well everyone can fake a screenshot convincingly if they have the internet"...again, I'd say do so with the programs you listed, and then come back to make this point. If you can provide proof of being able to convincingly fake a screenshot using a bitmap editor included in an OS, then I'll tip my cap to you and concede the point. Also worth noting that many people play from their phones, not a computer--can you make the same claim for those players, and if not, why should they be punished for their chosen method of access (which may be their only method of access)?


CA wrote:Never played FTF. But I'd say different ball-game due to the time constraints. Tough to forge a phone-conversation with accurate voice imitations in a time-limited situation. So not a valid comparative.
Let's keep it to online then. I've played a few FOW. That's mostly where the controversy seems to arise. It's a subtle devious game, not for everyone. So why not allow subtle devious means? There's no ethical considerations, clearly. Play in the shark-pool, you're gonna meet sharks. 'Nuff said.

Why is it being difficult to forge a phone conversation in time constraints a reason that it's not a fair strategy in FtF, but it being difficult for most people to convincingly forge a screenshot not a reason to disallow it in online play?
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Re: Self Reporting Unintentional Violation (Screencap)

Postby ColonelApricot » 23 Mar 2018, 06:42

gareth66 wrote:There is an angle on this that I think people are missing. It is not possible to post screenshots within the player to player messaging system. Shoutbox, yes, but not in private messages. So to send players screenshots requires use of another platform for communicating (as, indeed, andrewd used in the incident that triggered this discussion). As soon as players start communicating outside the messaging system, communications are no longer necessarily visible to the moderators. And as soon as that happens, there could be all sorts of metagaming going on that moderators would not be able to deal with. Keeping all communications within the messaging system is paramount for the integrity of games, which is why that is such a central feature of our metagaming rules.

The obvious corollary to this is - upgrade the in-game message system to handle images - like the shoutbox already does.
Lately I've been focusing on PBF games and it's refreshing to be able to post images and emojis in PMs. And actually I've pretty much abandoned standard games - apart from FOW that can't really be played in PBF (I assume it would tricky to map manually I'd say).
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