Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Suggestions on improving the site or comments in general?

What should we do about Draw Proposal for Gunboat games?

Leave as they are (from Spring 1901)
9
43%
Change back to Spring 1905 and later
10
48%
Something else
2
10%
 
Total votes : 21

Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby super_dipsy » 02 Jul 2017, 09:36

A question was raised recently about draw offers in gunboat. See http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=55821

In a nutshell, what seems to be happening is that when we changed things to allow Draw proposals from Spring 1901 (it was Spring 1905, remember) we unwittingly offered Gunboat players a new way to establish alliances. You can immediately offer a draw for you and another player (very unlikely to be accepted!) and see whether the other player accepts. Of course, depending on timezones someone else may kill the draw offer first, but the point is the indication is still there that you are interested in a n alliance with the other country.

I know you can 'communicate' an interest in alliances today, by for example ordering supports for another country. But in my mind that has a cost; particularly at the start of the game, wasting a precious order on another player is a major investment. The issue is the draw offer has zero cost for the offering player. And being able to set an alliance up right at game start seems quite a big dent in the 'spirit of Gunboat'.

But perhaps Gunboat is more fun if you CAN ally early. Not being a regular Gunboat player I wouldn't know.

Views? Thoughts? One option of course is we could stop allowing draw proposals for gunboat until say 1905 when they used to be. Making all draw proposals secret ballot doesn't help though, since the country list would still be the same.

I'll set up a strawman poll too.
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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby Jack007 » 02 Jul 2017, 14:18

Interesting point, didn't think ever about the investment costs, but you are right.

One solution could be to allow only DIAS and secret ballot, in a way that you won't see who proposed the draw, neither who agreed/denied.
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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby super_dipsy » 02 Jul 2017, 15:27

Jack007 wrote:Interesting point, didn't think ever about the investment costs, but you are right.

One solution could be to allow only DIAS and secret ballot, in a way that you won't see who proposed the draw, neither who agreed/denied.

That was my first thought, but it doesn't make much difference I think. Although you can't see any answer, by proposing a draw with a neighbour the draw offer will be publicized so your neighbour will see it.
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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby Hybrid » 02 Jul 2017, 18:55

Jack007 wrote:One solution could be to allow only DIAS and secret ballot, in a way that you won't see who proposed the draw, neither who agreed/denied.

There's really no difference as the proposal itself is the greater issue than the response. The proposal is still a form of communication, you're still getting to say something to other players.

I like the idea of having it set to 1905. I can't see a true reason or situation where having a draw proposal in spring 1901 is ever necessary. Even in standard games, I haven't seen a draw proposal in 1901 get passed. However, in a standard game the proposal can be responded to via PM and PP, in Gun boat it can not.

In short; there is no harm in setting it to 1905 all it will do is prevent any form of communication for the first 5 years.
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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby WHSeward » 02 Jul 2017, 19:06

If this is a change we want to make, I think the simplest solution that doesn't impact genuine draw proposals would be to just make draw proposals anonymous rather than named. That makes it incumbent on the players to "interfere" with draw-proposal-comms, by offering false or opposite draw proposals. If you see an E-F draw proposal and later an E-G draw proposal, you won't know which is from E, or F, or G or even from someone on the other side of the board.

It could be implemented as one change to all games so it is super easy.

Just an idea.
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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby Iggy » 02 Jul 2017, 19:22

I actually don't see a need for any change. There are several available options to implement without any change being made. The first, semi naive option is to simply include a note in the game description saying it is off limits to do so. The second, more binding option would be to make the game DIAS, then there is no option to do what is described.

Ultimately it might be a nice option/ feature to add to the game but hard to imagine if having a high priority in implementation among other options to add.
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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby gordenko » 02 Jul 2017, 21:10

Personally, I like the idea of going back to 1905. Draw proposals as they work now are useful late in Gunboat games, as a way for the smaller powers to try to stop a solo; otherwise it can be a little too easy for a solo once somebody starts running away with it. But early on, it does violate the spirit of Gunboat if it's used to just fish around for alliances. Plus, I wouldn't think that there would be any reason to be sending a legitimate draw proposal before 1905 anyway.
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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby asudevil » 04 Jul 2017, 01:20

gordenko wrote:Plus, I wouldn't think that there would be any reason to be sending a legitimate draw proposal before 1905 anyway.


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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby Tomicus » 12 Jul 2017, 03:19

As one who only plays gunboat games, I like the different draw options. As with other forms of communication, I really like draw options when they work in my favor and dislike them when they don't. It seems there are enough players here to allow all options currently offered.
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Re: Draw proposals change for Gunboat games?

Postby super_dipsy » 12 Jul 2017, 06:53

Thanks to all who have voted. The vote is very close, and as such doesn't justify a change since we usually go with the status quo unless there is a strong feeling otherwise. I will close this thread now.
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