Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Town wins!)

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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby sjg11 » 17 Jul 2017, 17:16

kimbyrle wrote:
Conq wrote:It's like ZoomZip is a teacher, awarding full credit to a student after they got a math problem right. I wouldn't think Town Zip would be so sure about the right answer. And I don't think Town Zip would give out "BINGO!s" and "Awesomes." I can see why Scum Zip might do that.


And dammit. For all the various reasons Conq elucidated (I didn't want to quote the entire post), while I still track ZoomZip's suggestions as overall town, I don't like how he's led people to them.

Ok, so just looking at kimbyrle's vote on ZZ. I've stated why I disagree with the tonal read above but I want to explain why I have a bigger issue with Conq's vote than I do with her (?) vote. Conq's vote is derivative on a topic which ZZ has replied without discussing ZZ's reply in his post. Kimbyrle's is also derivative of the tonal sections of Conq's argument but ZZ hasn't responded to the tonal sections of the argument by this point in time. Hence the difference between the two votes in my view.
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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby kimbyrle » 17 Jul 2017, 17:19

sjg11 wrote:her (?)


Yes.
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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby sjg11 » 17 Jul 2017, 17:20

UpsideDownChuck wrote:Biggest issue with ZZ is the townreads:
Harb - Still think he is town and working the read the game and mechanics the best right now.
sjg11 - Is pushing a lot of places, including me, and may even vote me before day end. Still think he's town.
Conq - Seems really on point and dedicated, small twinge that "Maybe's he's taking this too seriously? Wasn't he all 'I am the greatest!' in his last game as town" - which apparently means I want people to be more distracting. Which doesn't work.
shadowfriend1 - Similar space to SJG11.


If you don't want to lynch either sjg11 or Harb because they're not being wolfy and you think they're valuable when town, that understandable. But townreading Harb because he is working to read the game and the mechanics the best? I don't think that's true for one, and for another it's a terrible basis for townreading him D1. Harb can feel free to correct me, but I don't think even he'd think he's outside his scum range. The Conq read is pretty questionable to me to. He's got a couple mechanics post and a first page townlean on kimbryle for pointing out Harb's joke. Apparently he's maybe too serious? In typing this I think that one bothers me the most.

Now onto Chuck's ZZ vote. Chuck, I'd like to direct your attention towards Day One of... Walking Dead Mafia, specifically ZZ's townread of nanook there. Point is that ZZ regularly "rewards" good play with his Day One reads and then re-evaluates those reads later in the game. It's ZZ's normal Day One scumhunting method when he doesn't see anything indicative to poke at. Does this change your view on things Chuck?
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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby sjg11 » 17 Jul 2017, 17:24

Now, time for sjg to catch up on Game of Thrones. He will return in an hour.
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Oh what a perfect GM!

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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby kimbyrle » 17 Jul 2017, 17:26

sjg11 wrote:Kimbyrle's is also derivative of the tonal sections of Conq's argument but ZZ hasn't responded to the tonal sections of the argument by this point in time. Hence the difference between the two votes in my view.


To be fair, I'd already called these into question in my longer read post yesterday. I'm not bandwagoning on Conq's post, just agreeing that it restates what I was already feeling.

And honestly, I'm holding a poised crouch on jumping back to ASUDevil if he doesn't answer my questions, or shirt if I keep reading this whole "pick apart what you said before vs what you say now" thing, because I think it's bullshit to ask someone to defend their earlier points then yell "AHA!" if the explanations seem genuine despite being not exactly the same as previously stated.

I still think I value persuasive explanation of stance higher than my sense of toneread, and ZZ is addressing that in ways that don't seem disingenuous to me. But my playstyle is to wait until I feel ready to switch before I do. I'm not going to jump around willy-nilly every time someone defends themself.
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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby Keirador » 17 Jul 2017, 17:32

Alright, that's the heaviest bit of travel done until the end of July, when I'll either go radio silent again or post prolifically depending on whether my plane, advertised as having WiFi, will actually have WiFi or not (it will not).

Catching up thoroughly now, but feel free to draw my attention to anything specific. FWIW as of page 8 - 9 I'm strongly thinking no reveals, at least initially or until someone can reveal something useful.
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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby Keirador » 17 Jul 2017, 17:39

Re: flavor familiarity, none at all for me, unfortunately. In fact. . . signing up for this game made me realize that for years I'd been confusing Discworld with Ringworld. I'll go sit in the Shame Corner.
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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby Harb » 17 Jul 2017, 17:40

shirt wrote:Also, while i currently have a town-read on you, (the angua-sponge would be investigation(and lynch) immune - argument helped a lot in this regard)
this setup for a 'you don't want my help, fine, i'll go lurk'-tactic has been noted.
(an 'is literally in the manual'-scum-tactic btw)


Not sure the point of saying this shirt. If she's going to pull out a scum manual tactic, why let her know you're looking for it? She hasn't done it now, and you're townreading her, so you're not generally suspicious of her just for the set up. You're taking away a potential readable moment for... what? Seems like the only result is Kim looks a little less clean.

--
Harb wrote:My personal experience is that scum tend to be more serious, less fun (this is heavily informed by my own play,

Is this what you had in mind when you made a joke-vote ON a joke-vote while there was better stuff to go on already?


Not that one, but I'd be lying if I said that after it was pointed out that I tend to be looser as town I didn't think about it more, even as town. Townies want to be townread too.

I also didn't think there was better stuff to go on in thread. Didn't (also don't) see the role fishing side of your argument with ZoomZip, and as I've said I thought his opening was actually a town lean. Telleo's first post struck me as slightly off but I couldn't put a finger on it, and I was working through that line of inquiry. As also a sort of answer to Telleo's question I tend to want to let lines of inquiry develop a little more before letting people know what exactly I'm suspicious about if possible. Hence, "How is your plan changed by Angua's alignment?" rather than "Telleo, your plan seems to me to indicate you know Angua's alignment". This'll also extend to ZZ's comment on my position on "Vote Early, Vote often" (nested answers, woo!). I think I'm mid spectrum on Vote Early, Vote Often. I just used to be a lot further towards the "Vote when certain" end, and as I remember our Fable 8 conversation I was being convinced to bring it back towards the middle.

So, full circle, no, I didn't see anything better at that point to do with my vote than have some fun.


Shirt's case on ZoomZip -
As I said, I like'd sjg's summation and response. I've added my own town lean on ZZ reasoning (by the way, I'd love for people to talk about that in a more than "WIFOM so it shouldn't matter" sort of way. I think it does matter, but I'm not sure if anyone has read it the same way. I'm more concerned about reading more into it that is there in terms of attitude than I am about ZoomZip faking it (which is not to say that's not a concern at all).).

I wasn't hugely happy that shirt immediately switched from ZoomZip being problematic cause he's anti-Vote Early, Vote Often to ZoomZip problematic because he's Vote Early, Vote Often and not living up to it. I can understand finding both of them to be problematic, but switching from one to the other seems like it should at least introduce a little bit of re-evaluation.

Shirt at least does have a good point about some of the flaws in ZoomZip's plan, namely the loss of the opportunity to pass to a townie you think is on the right track. Still potentially different valuation on ZoomZip's part (he values information over minimized damage), but I do wish he'd thought of/point out the conflict at least. I'm not sure I buy that the town is overall town negative as opposed to debatable until Conq posts about claimed townies saying their pass went awry. There's not really a check on someone claiming their pass went awry. So false positives can result from thieving (ZoomZip, when did you adjust your plan to account for town Thieves? That happened right?), or from scum claiming to be a townie whose pass went awry. Given the potential existence of Shenanigans, I think scum could have a reasonable certainty town wouldn't lynch them if their intended target came up town. Which makes the information end of the plan pretty dismal.

Not sure bad plan = scum though. And particularly not for shirt's reasons alone.

Keirador wrote:Re: flavor familiarity, none at all for me, unfortunately. In fact. . . signing up for this game made me realize that for years I'd been confusing Discworld with Ringworld. I'll go sit in the Shame Corner.


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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby Harb » 17 Jul 2017, 17:52

Not sure where I'm at. My asu vote is stale, though I guess the vote on me and the unanswered question regarding "Even More" means I'm not totally unhappy with it there.

I'm not sure I buy that Conq is the worst vote on the ZoomZip wagon, though two folks I respect a lot seem to think that's the case. I'm not sure I even think that 3 people on ZoomZip even means a likelihood one is scum for that matter. Things are kinda spread out for wagonomics.

Telleo's pretty null for me at this point. Certainly talented enough for her current output to be scum.

UDC, actually kind of a town lean. He and I have been in the same headspace a lot. Disagree on ZoomZip, but UDC is taking his own path to get there at least.

Hopefully Keir's got some good stuff for us that freshen up talk.

I need to look at SF1.

Gonna be thinking a bit.
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Re: Mafia CLXII: Men-At-Arms - Game Thread (Day 1)

Postby kimbyrle » 17 Jul 2017, 17:57

asudevil wrote:Scum know you are town too...they buddy to a new guy. If anything this makes me want to vote Harb even more. Buddying up to the new girl. Throws an easily defensible vote down on me (for lurking basically)...which is the easiest of votes to throw down.


Also, I actually really like this argument. I'm not ready to jump Harb yet, but I'm thinking about this.
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