Surrendering

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Surrendering

Postby Parabellum » 12 Jun 2017, 03:42

I'm new to this game, and I was surprised to find that surrendering is frowned upon. I play a lot of chess, so I'm used to resigning in lost positions; in that game, as I'm sure you know, to resign is to show respect for your opponent. To continue to play in a completely lost position, on the other hand, is disrespectful. If you refuse to resign, you're essentially saying that your opponent either doesn't know how to checkmate you, can't see a stalemate that you can sneak in, or will simply blunder away his victory. In other words, to keep playing is a huge insult. I don't understand why the etiquette is different for Diplomacy. Why is it rude to surrender if you don't have a chance to come back? I surrendered as Italy because I thought my position was lost (because I had no idea what I was doing!!), but I found out afterwards that this is rude...
Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once. Of all the wonders I have yet seen, it seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come.
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Re: Surrendering

Postby edmgrim » 12 Jun 2017, 03:47

Perhaps the biggest reason it is frowned upon is because this is a 7-player environment. When you leave your nation remains. But by being in "Civil Disorder" the moves it will make (HOLDS) are known to all and may offer one player an advantage or put another at risk. By seeing the game out, you continue negotiations and, while you may not share in victory, you still influence the ultimate outcome.
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Re: Surrendering

Postby WHSeward » 12 Jun 2017, 03:54

From Dip101

Lecture #6: Reliable Play: Competing to the Finish

In the Diplomacy hobby, it is considered disrespectful to give up and not play a game to its completion, either you are eliminated or someone has won or there is a draw declared. Diplomacy is a 7 person game and when you join a game, you are making a commitment to play the game to the end with your fellow gamers.

Some people are surprised by this requirement, especially if they come from games like Chess where players are expected to resign hopeless positions and not drag the game out.

The reason the Diplomacy hobby etiquette is different is simple; quitting affects the balance of the game for the other players. The powers geographically near the quitter are at a big advantage to pick up easy SCs compared to players that are far away and won't get the free spoils.

But being polite is not the only reason to stick with it. The game is specifically designed to maximize competition by giving every power an incentive to fight to the end. In Diplomacy, all survivors share equally in a draw, so even if you have only 1 unit left, if you can earn a spot in the draw, you have earned the same result as someone that has 17 centers. So no matter what has happened in the game, so long as you still have a unit on the board, you are still fully in the game.

What is more, Diplomacy is a VERY hard game. With 7 players and about half of all games ending in draws, the "average" player is going to win only about 1 in 14 games. In such a difficult game, players that stick with it figure out how to enjoy playing the game itself. Those that have to win to have fun, just won't last in this hobby. Ask any expert player, and they will tell you some of the most fun games they have had were in draws and losses. That is the nature of the game.

Of course, sometimes events happen in real life that make continuing to play impossible. If that happens, try to find a substitute for your games, either someone you know, or you can advertise on the forum.

After you find a player willing to take over for you, use the "Name a Substitute" link for each game someone is taking over for you. (Don't break the "one player, one account" rule.)

If all else fails and you simply must just quit, try to give as much notice to your fellow players as you can and use the "surrender" button under the "Status" link. The worst thing you can do is just walk away from the game and be auto-surrendered after 2 NMRs in Orders steps. This can really damage the game, and it is impossible for a replacement player to take over the position in the meantime.

***** RECOMMENDED READING *****

PlayDip tracks every player's reliability, as measured by how often they surrender and NMR. Players are classified as "Diplomats" or "Ambassadors" based on the reliability of their recent play, and class in turn affects what games a player is eligible to enter. This is system allows reliable players to have games without players that miss a lot of moves or surrender.

A complete description of the system is in the forum at this link. It is worth reading to understand how it works.

viewtopic.php?f=657&t=43283

A useful forum resource is the Games Openings forum, the place to advertise for substitutes & replacements:

viewforum.php?f=5
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Re: Surrendering

Postby Parabellum » 12 Jun 2017, 04:08

I guess that answers that...
Cowards die many times before their deaths. The valiant never taste of death but once. Of all the wonders I have yet seen, it seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come.
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Re: Surrendering

Postby asudevil » 12 Jun 2017, 05:34

Parabellum wrote:I guess that answers that...


Don't feel bad...surrendering is SUPER common. Even though it is frowned upon. Playing it out...even if you cut your diplomacy down to the minimum and just put in orders...is still better than just holding and letting yourself be eaten up.

Welcome though, hope your second game goes better.
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Re: Surrendering

Postby I Love Italy » 12 Jun 2017, 06:14

If you're in an untenable position, try pushing for a draw which doesn't include you. Usually one of two things will happen

A) People will accept, and the game will be over.

B) Someone won't accept, and it'll be clear they're trying for a solo. You can then often yourself a part of a draw by making your small force a necessary part of a stalemate against them.

Or, like Asudevil said, finish it out with essentially no effort. I think we've all done that at some point.
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Re: Surrendering

Postby Don Juan of Austria » 12 Jun 2017, 07:12

I Love Italy wrote:
Or, like Asudevil said, finish it out with essentially no effort. I think we've all done that at some point.


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Re: Surrendering

Postby Nibbler » 12 Jun 2017, 08:32

I think the key is that, although there are regular comparisons between the two, Dip isn't chess.

I recall reading, quite recently, someone calling Dip 7-player chess, making me groan. I can see the reasons behind the comparison - no element of luck in the moves made, for instance - but Diplomacy is about communication, negotiation, persuasion, etc. Unless your Hess game involves a modified board, snakes, empresses, witches and three players, when does chess include those?

Without repeating the article above (excellent, btw) there's not much more to say except...

In many formats the concession is allowed in Diplomacy, ie all the survivors voting to concede defeat to a single opponent. This isn't an option on this site. I can understand why not in a narrow sense but it is a shame that it isn't. Effectively the same outcome can happen by one or more players allowing a player to solo, as happened for me in a game, but there is no ability to nominate a solo winner.
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Re: Surrendering

Postby ColonelApricot » 12 Jun 2017, 11:48

There are many cases of surrender where the player concerned seems to abandon the game immediately upon another player reneging on an agreement. It's as if they'd only be satisfied to keep starting new games until they eventually manage to navigate to the end of the game without anything unpredictable happening.

I suspect many such players just create a new account or abandon the site permanently which if true means that it's a waste of time penalising them. What about revisiting the idea that a new player must complete at least one non-ranked game without surrendering before they can play a ranked game? At least it'd give them some idea of what it takes to play and enjoy the game.
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Re: Surrendering

Postby asudevil » 12 Jun 2017, 13:31

ColonelApricot wrote:There are many cases of surrender where the player concerned seems to abandon the game immediately upon another player reneging on an agreement. It's as if they'd only be satisfied to keep starting new games until they eventually manage to navigate to the end of the game without anything unpredictable happening.

I suspect many such players just create a new account or abandon the site permanently which if true means that it's a waste of time penalising them. What about revisiting the idea that a new player must complete at least one non-ranked game without surrendering before they can play a ranked game? At least it'd give them some idea of what it takes to play and enjoy the game.


Cause for people who DO know the game..that sucks

And complete...if I can just lose real quick (move out of all my home SC I can be eliminated by 02)...then I can go to ranked games...If I play well...and its a longer deadline...that game could take 3 months.

And then with those 2 extremes...what are we letting new people sign up to learn about the game. Its a rough situation that has NO good options. Please realize Im not just shooting you down to shoot you down...its something I have thought about a LOT
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