Stabbing For The Draw

What are your winning tactics? Kill them all? Discuss strategy for the classic and variant games using the classic map, or visit the sub-forums for the variant maps.
Forum rules
Strategy
In addition to the general Forum Guidelines (see here: viewtopic.php?f=130&t=15441), there are additional rules for posting in this forum.
1. When discussing strategy, reference should not be made to any active game. This section of the Forum is for general strategy discussion, not specific situations within games.
2. It follows that links, images, game name and/or number should not be added to a post if the game is active.
Posts which refer to a specific situation in an active game, or which link directly to an active game, are subject to editing or removal.

Stabbing For The Draw

Postby senorita21 » 02 Sep 2015, 22:34

I just finished this game: http://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play_ ... _id=105622

I was Italy allied with Turkey. We had played the previous game together not allied though but he expressed a desire to be in a game with again me so I created one and invited him (I only play in games I have created these days). I made it clear I would give nor ask for any quarter. Finding ourselves Italy and Turkey the alliance seemed natural. It quickly became clear that on destroying a hapless Russia and luckless Austria I was a mere junior Partner. The Western Triangle was a fight between England and France. It was clear - on doing the maths - that only Turkey could solo and it would not matter how 'nice' he was it was a demand of the game that a player solo and he would. I stabbed for the draw and gained two SCs from him and he gained two SCs anyway. He was still on double digits - 11 SCs. Of course, Turkey was all injured innocence but any player with 13 SCs as he would have had would stab his junior partner on 7 SCs for the chance to solo.

But I beat him to it. I stabbed for the draw, got England and France to resolve their differences and brought this baby home. This is the first time I have done this (I have not played much diplomacy and all of it here). Not much is said about stabbing for the draw so here is a little something.
senorita21
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Jan 2013, 13:04
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1198)
All-game rating: (1210)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby ruffdove » 03 Sep 2015, 04:14

I don't think you stabbed for the draw, you stabbed to prevent someone else soloing. It just happened to end in a draw. It's entirely possible that your stab could have developed into a true advantage allowing you to go for the solo yourself. Or your stab could have resulted in someone else soloing. As it happens, you came away with the draw. Nicely done.
User avatar
ruffdove
 
Posts: 416
Joined: 28 Mar 2015, 04:32
Location: Mid-Atlantic, USA
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1515)
All-game rating: (1579)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby senorita21 » 03 Sep 2015, 11:54

ruffdove wrote:I don't think you stabbed for the draw, you stabbed to prevent someone else soloing. It just happened to end in a draw. It's entirely possible that your stab could have developed into a true advantage allowing you to go for the solo yourself. Or your stab could have resulted in someone else soloing. As it happens, you came away with the draw. Nicely done.


Thanks for the reply.

Of course, anything is possible in diplomacy but as I assessed the situation it was drawish and so a draw was a good result.

I stabbed to prevent the solo which meant a draw. I was clear that an angry Turkey would be in my face for the rest of the game and England or France had zero chance of soloing. Even post stab, I did not think of soloing for myself because the situation did not allow it before or after the stab.
senorita21
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Jan 2013, 13:04
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1198)
All-game rating: (1210)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby Jack007 » 03 Sep 2015, 16:52

Even if you had stabbed explicitly for the draw, it would be perfectly alright. The rules do allow this, and there is no objective reason why one shouldn't do so. I know, the trend is toward soloing as a preferred goal at the moment and here on playdiplomacy site, but this is only a matter of taste, a fashion even, and subject of changes every few years, forth and back. The dispute between drawers and soloists about who are the real dippers is as old as the game itself. No reason to feel minor for the ones or the others.

Regards..
Jack007 (3 Stars) stripped off all medals by the admiralty partially rehabilitated
Member of the Honorables
Singer of the Praises

There is no greater solitude than the samurai's, unless it be that of the tiger in the jungle… perhaps…
- Bushido (The book of the samurais)
User avatar
Jack007
Premium Member
 
Posts: 603
Joined: 08 Mar 2014, 17:34
Location: Switzerland, the Impassable
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1177
All-game rating: 1539
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby gsmx » 13 Nov 2015, 20:28

Stabbing for a draw certainly can make sense in irreversable circumstances where you see a solo in reach of another player, but your problem really was letting it get that far. If you're in a well oiled alliance you should have used diplomatic influence to correct the lack of parity a long time sooner. Sometimes these things slip out of reach inadvertantly, perhaps one of your allies neighbors unexpectedly kingmakes him, but for the most part you have options. The distrance from 13 to 18 is still pretty big and there's generally a lot of hoops he has to jump through to get there unless the other players are just so exceptionally inexperienced and bad. Once you stab for the draw, that's often pretty much it and you've stuck a pin in that game with a less then exciting draw outcome. Always look at all options to see if there's a way to flip things into your favour and keep the game going.

Worth noting a stab isn't necessarily the end of things. Many a time i've had to make a bold move on an ally that was relatively justifyable and with the right personalities involved i was able to smooth things over and possibly even make the alliance all the stronger for it. Sometimes the best and most lucrative blindsides come out of broken alliance that are instantly reconciled since the other players almost never see it coming which creates a lot of openings. But other times players take stabs super personally and the bridge is burnt. I dont' recommend the "ask for forgiveness over permission" approach for majority of the time, but sometimes it's just the only way to protect your interests.
The first quality that is needed is audacity.
User avatar
gsmx
Premium Member
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: 22 Aug 2011, 14:50
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 2172
All-game rating: 2618
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby senorita21 » 08 Nov 2016, 04:11

gsmx wrote:Stabbing for a draw certainly can make sense in irreversable circumstances where you see a solo in reach of another player, but your problem really was letting it get that far. If you're in a well oiled alliance you should have used diplomatic influence to correct the lack of parity a long time sooner. Sometimes these things slip out of reach inadvertantly, perhaps one of your allies neighbors unexpectedly kingmakes him, but for the most part you have options. The distrance from 13 to 18 is still pretty big and there's generally a lot of hoops he has to jump through to get there unless the other players are just so exceptionally inexperienced and bad. Once you stab for the draw, that's often pretty much it and you've stuck a pin in that game with a less then exciting draw outcome. Always look at all options to see if there's a way to flip things into your favour and keep the game going.

Worth noting a stab isn't necessarily the end of things. Many a time i've had to make a bold move on an ally that was relatively justifyable and with the right personalities involved i was able to smooth things over and possibly even make the alliance all the stronger for it. Sometimes the best and most lucrative blindsides come out of broken alliance that are instantly reconciled since the other players almost never see it coming which creates a lot of openings. But other times players take stabs super personally and the bridge is burnt. I dont' recommend the "ask for forgiveness over permission" approach for majority of the time, but sometimes it's just the only way to protect your interests.


I cannot understand why I have never before commented upon the sublimity that is gsmx's post. It shows an understanding leap years beyond mine.
senorita21
 
Posts: 176
Joined: 22 Jan 2013, 13:04
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1198)
All-game rating: (1210)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby Octavious » 12 Nov 2016, 08:51

I cannot understand why I have never before commented upon the sublimity that is gsmx's post. It shows an understanding leap years beyond mine


This site is too damned respectful of its elders :P . Not to say gsmx isn't a decent enough player, as he clearly is, but the idea that there's a diplomacy elite who are masters of some secret diplomatic arts is poppycock.

As soon as you start believing that the other guy is significantly better than you you've lost the game. You allow fear to dictate your actions. You stab too early, terrified that it's the only way to stop a nonexistent master plan, or you don't stab at all, convinced that there's no way you can pull it off. There is no leap year gap in understanding. The only gap of note is that of confidence.
Guaaaaaaak!
User avatar
Octavious
 
Posts: 105
Joined: 02 Aug 2012, 23:18
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1119)
All-game rating: (1126)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 12 Nov 2016, 14:33

Octavious wrote:There is no leap year gap in understanding. The only gap of note is that of confidence.

I agree with most of your statement in principle, but would quibble a little bit with this part. Some people have an innate grasp of or intuitive feel for the game, call it what you will, but for some it's a more natural understanding or feel for the game, while for others it takes a lot more thought and effort to reach the same level of understanding. I'm not saying one is better than the other or that people who grasp it easily don't work or put effort into the game to be good, just that understanding comes easier to some than to others.

I do agree though, that with enough confidence and effort, most people that want to be good at diplomacy, can be good at diplomacy.
Platinum Classicist
(h/t lordelindel)

I am your (co-) Leader.

GM of Sengoku, Heptarchy 14.

France

Need a forum game GM'ed? PM me!

Mod
User avatar
nanooktheeskimo
Premium Member
 
Posts: 4326
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 19:52
Location: East TN
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1190
All-game rating: 1386
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby gsmx » 16 Nov 2016, 10:47

Octavious wrote:
I cannot understand why I have never before commented upon the sublimity that is gsmx's post. It shows an understanding leap years beyond mine


This site is too damned respectful of its elders :P . Not to say gsmx isn't a decent enough player, as he clearly is, but the idea that there's a diplomacy elite who are masters of some secret diplomatic arts is poppycock.

Awww "decent enough". Just admitting that much must have been hard for you to type. ;)
The first quality that is needed is audacity.
User avatar
gsmx
Premium Member
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: 22 Aug 2011, 14:50
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 2172
All-game rating: 2618
Timezone: GMT-8

Re: Stabbing For The Draw

Postby Octavious » 16 Nov 2016, 15:15

Not at all. I'm a great believer in credit where credit's due. A petty, crass individual may gain enjoyment from talking others down, but if I come across a player with above average skill I will come straight out and say that they are indeed above average.

You are easily, easily, amongst the top 200 players I've encountered in the past couple of years, and shame on anyone who suggests otherwise.
Guaaaaaaak!
User avatar
Octavious
 
Posts: 105
Joined: 02 Aug 2012, 23:18
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1119)
All-game rating: (1126)
Timezone: GMT

Next

Return to Strategy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests