my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby rd45 » 05 Jul 2015, 00:20

WHSeward wrote:What game number do you think this happened in?


The game number is 97953. Please let me know what I'm missing.
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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby WHSeward » 05 Jul 2015, 01:24

OK, I stand corrected. Your sub got the hit for the surrender.

If your sub hits the surrender button, that is on you. But apparently, if they auto-surrender, they take it

Sorry for the mis-information
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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby asudevil » 05 Jul 2015, 01:36

WHSeward wrote:OK, I stand corrected. Your sub got the hit for the surrender.

If your sub hits the surrender button, that is on you. But apparently, if they auto-surrender, they take it

Sorry for the mis-information


I didn't know that either. That's interesting...question is...bug or intentional...
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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby I Love Italy » 05 Jul 2015, 01:54

You know, this makes me think... couldn't we have some sort of sub surrender protection or something? Maybe, a protection from it showing up on your stats the first time it happens, or a separate stat for sub surrenders?
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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby Alman » 05 Jul 2015, 05:33

WHSeward wrote:OK, I stand corrected. Your sub got the hit for the surrender.

If your sub hits the surrender button, that is on you. But apparently, if they auto-surrender, they take it


That is a VERY interesting thing. I hope Dipsy will weigh in on this. I'm glad you didn't get hit with the surrender, but that seems an odd distinction to make.....
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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby super_dipsy » 05 Jul 2015, 08:22

Well. This is interesting.

So the codebase still has the capacity to amaze me after all this time :shock: . As you might expect, we have a routine to surrender a player. This does various things, including switching subs / original players in and out. However, in order to keep the development side interesting and fun, it turns out that in some places (like when a user is auto-surrendered) instead of calling the 'surrender the user' routine, the code has its own hard-coded setting of tables. So of course when you update the 'Surrender the user' routine to switch the sub and the original player, this does not affect the hard-coded 'I do it my way' part. Always good to write code that keeps others on their toes ;)

That was just me getting techie, which is very boring to most people. So the summary is that indeed, auto-surrender by the sub is being counted against the sub and not the original player.

Obviously this is a bug. But before I fix it, it does raise an interesting issue. Given that the sub could simply have surrendered, what was the point of making everybody else wait for at least two phases rather than just surrendering straight away? Not very nice behaviour. I am tempted to say mark the auto-surrender against the sub AND the original player. But I guess that is a bit harsh; after all, the sub may have got their own RL problems.

I will change the code to ensure the original player gets stung, which should certainly happen regardless of whether anything happens to the sub.
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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby rd45 » 05 Jul 2015, 11:07

super_dipsy wrote:Obviously this is a bug. But before I fix it, it does raise an interesting issue. Given that the sub could simply have surrendered, what was the point of making everybody else wait for at least two phases rather than just surrendering straight away? Not very nice behaviour. I am tempted to say mark the auto-surrender against the sub AND the original player. But I guess that is a bit harsh; after all, the sub may have got their own RL problems.

I will change the code to ensure the original player gets stung, which should certainly happen regardless of whether anything happens to the sub.


OK, first of all - I appreciate the detailed description there, and completely understand how these things happen, from working on software implementations IRL. And you'll have to excuse me for not knowing the history behind the name-a-sub feature, and not having been involved in any previous conversation around what the intended behaviour is there.

But from my perspective, I think there's value in looking harder at exactly who should get the glory or the blame for whatever the sub does. Based on the sympathetic responses that I got up-thread, it seems like there's a consensus that it's harsh for the original player to get tarred with the sub's surrender. In the same vein - if the sub pulls off some inspired moves & wins the game, I'd have no issue with the sub getting the glory for that. And if the sub NMRs, that's the sub's NMR & not the original player's.

So - I'd like to suggest an alternative approach. Maybe if the sub surrenders - automatically or by pressing the button - the surrender should count against the sub, and the game should immediately revert to the original player, who takes it back on from that point. The original player is free to continue, or to find another sub if that's necessary. As an extra added-value feature, if it's not too onerous - maybe on the sub's first NMR, the original player could get an email alert - at that point, there's still time to figure out who's best placed to continue, between the sub & the original - and maybe the auto-surrender could be avoided altogether.

Seems to me that the subbed game stands less chance of disruption if the original player could be automatically tagged back in - and the whole point of this name-a-sub process is to minimise disruption to ongoing games, right?

Like I said - I wasn't around when this was first implemented. Feel free to correct my misunderstandings. Thanks to everyone who's chipped in so far.
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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby The SHIV » 05 Jul 2015, 15:23

Uh oh, the machines are becoming smarter than their makers. Its already begun. :o Get to the choppa! :twisted: Sarah Conner? I'll be back! :?

LOL

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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby asudevil » 05 Jul 2015, 16:30

rd45 wrote:But from my perspective, I think there's value in looking harder at exactly who should get the glory or the blame for whatever the sub does. Based on the sympathetic responses that I got up-thread, it seems like there's a consensus that it's harsh for the original player to get tarred with the sub's surrender. In the same vein - if the sub pulls off some inspired moves & wins the game, I'd have no issue with the sub getting the glory for that. And if the sub NMRs, that's the sub's NMR & not the original player's.

So - I'd like to suggest an alternative approach. Maybe if the sub surrenders - automatically or by pressing the button - the surrender should count against the sub, and the game should immediately revert to the original player, who takes it back on from that point. The original player is free to continue, or to find another sub if that's necessary. As an extra added-value feature, if it's not too onerous - maybe on the sub's first NMR, the original player could get an email alert - at that point, there's still time to figure out who's best placed to continue, between the sub & the original - and maybe the auto-surrender could be avoided altogether.

Seems to me that the subbed game stands less chance of disruption if the original player could be automatically tagged back in - and the whole point of this name-a-sub process is to minimise disruption to ongoing games, right?

Like I said - I wasn't around when this was first implemented. Feel free to correct my misunderstandings. Thanks to everyone who's chipped in so far.
--rd45


The whole point of naming a sub is so that when you are away without internet access or limited access, you can have someone play your game. If you are able to receive emails and set up a new sub (or start playing again)...then why do you need a sub ANYWAY?

And the surrender should absolutely NOT count against the sub (although I could see NMRs counting against him) because what if you said it would be 1 week you are gone...then you just never come back. Then that player is stuck in a game they can't leave without taking a surrender on their stats, when they either didn't have the time past the week...or just don't care.

Honestly, part of the issue with this goes back to people not really using a sub feature for what its there for. A temporary relief when you are going somewhere without internet access...or getting crazy UNEXPECTEDLY busy for a short time. Its not really for you to pawn off games because you just don't have time and don't want to finish games.

If the sub "miraculously" pulled off something...how long does that take to go from "Im not expecting much" to "OMG I just got a 2way draw...GO SUB". Even with 12 hour games...that has to be a good 2 weeks? Are you really gone that long without access? Maybe...occasionally...but unlikely.

Now, if you want a "permanent replacement" feature. I wouldn't mind that...where you just have them take over for you permanently and then they would get result (same as picking up a surrendered spot). But even then, who would do this for a poor position knowing it hits THEIR stats. So those "miracle turn arounds" would still be subs because then I don't take the loss cause the sub didn't expect to win it either...it was a MIRACLE.

Also, what do we do with the person who left...they should still get PART of the win/loss...they did play a percentage of the game. And there has to be some original player agreement that the sub gets the results. Every sub who solos shouldn't get the result...what if I left on 17 going into easy fall win, but I was on a plane overseas so had to go.

So a permanent replacement does have some merits...but it also has some questions (all of which should be in the suggestions topic)

Anyway, totally off topic, but figured I would answer some of those comments.
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Re: my sub auto-surrendered - does that count against me?

Postby super_dipsy » 05 Jul 2015, 18:22

rd45 wrote:Maybe if the sub surrenders - automatically or by pressing the button - the surrender should count against the sub, and the game should immediately revert to the original player, who takes it back on from that point. The original player is free to continue, or to find another sub if that's necessary.

Yes, to echo Asu's point I think you misunderstand the purpose of the temporary sub facility. The idea is when you are not able to play or enter orders (presumably because you are away or have real life issues preventing you having access) then a sub takes over until you return. Then you take the game back. Therefore what you suggest is not an option; if the original player was back and able to be aware that the sub had gone, then the original player would have taken the game back and the sub would never have surrendered. Therefore since the assumption is the original player is not available / does not have site access, trying to hand the game back to the original player makes no sense.
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