House Rules - What is Cheating?

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Re: What is cheating? v1.2

Postby Pedros » 08 May 2010, 19:00

rick.leeds wrote:The difference is that Player A can answer "Yes, I've played with xxx before..." and provide information. However, actually referring to a specific game is where the metagaming comes in. This is especially if Player A is trying to build an alliance with you on the basis of that - or other - games. If he says something like "Yes... he will stab you; he's done that in the past" that's fine. But saying "Yes... he will stab you; go look at game..." and that is a game Player A was in, THAT is when it becomes metagaming. It is specifically linking games that both have been in.

I'm supposed to be the hard-liner here! But even I think that's a bit hard Rick. The second quote doesn't necessarily mean that it's a revenge thing.

For instance, Player A is Italy, talking to Player B Austria and wanting an alliance, say a Lepanto against Turkey - perfectly legit. Austria replies that actually Turkey's been very friendly and he'd rather rely on that and use his resources against, say, Russia. Italy replies 'But I remember a game I was in with Turkey when just the same happened and he stabbed me'.

Surely that's not metagaming?
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Re: What is cheating? v1.2

Postby rick.leeds » 09 May 2010, 13:22

It's the reasoning behind it that I'm concerned with. Any link between games that involved the same players COULD be seen as metagaming. What we're really concerned with, though, is preventing alliances in Game X being built upon actions from Game Y.

If Amanda says to Bob "I want to build an alliance against Austria because Austria stabbed me in Game XXXXX" that's metagaming. If Amanda says to Bob "Austria will betray you. She's done it to me in the past" that isn't metagaming as it doesn't specifically link the two games, just actions ... if Bob then goes and does his research to verify this good on him.

If Amanda says to Bob "Austria will betray you. She did it to me in Game XXXXX" that is metagaming... IF Amanda can be evidenced as doing this BECAUSE of that betrayal. Finding the evidence of it is difficult (though possible). It isn't a perfect rule but it was introduced as it was a concern from a number of members of the community. Whether it will ever be used to evidence metagaming is another matter..... It certainly wouldn't be cause for action on it's own, although possibly if it linked with other evidence of cheating.
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Re: What is cheating? v1.2

Postby Pedros » 09 May 2010, 16:40

I've no problems with that version Rick. The "... IF" makes all the difference!
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Lack of Spirit and Reverse Metagaming.

Postby diospill » 19 Jun 2010, 15:29

rick.leeds wrote:
The Spirit of the Game is that players enter a game intending to achieve a solo victory (although this may be moderated within the game to achieving a draw) and that each game is independent of every other game and "stands alone" (Tournament games excepted, of course). When users allow previous and coexistent games to affect play in a game, this is “metagaming”.


I don't personally feel as if I'm good enough to get a solo. Therefore, it is always my principle goal to get not only an alliance, but a 3-way alliance if at all possible, and go for 3-way draws. I admit that if somehow I got to 17 SC's, I would probably go for the solo, but I try not to let it come to that. Should I modify my view of the game?


rick.leeds wrote:
(b) Entering a game and forging an alliance with a player that goes against reason solely because that player is someone you know from prior games.
Clarification: we recognise that trust is important in Diplomacy and that players will naturally be inclined to trust players that they have worked in successful alliances with before and, on the reverse side, be wary of trusting players who have stabbed them before. However, all players should have an equal chance to form a successful alliance with all other players in a game. Where the alliance, in the opinion of a Moderator, goes against the game situation and can be evidenced to be built solely on previous or existing relationships, this will be considered as being against the spirit of the game. As general guidance, other games with someone should not be the principal factor in the way you play a game.


There is a particular player that I have played with in several of my games. The situations in those games were such that we have never once been allied, or have worked together in any way, ever. I don't think we have even sent a single message to one another. I see that we are both in a pending game together. It is already in my head that I want to try to form an alliance with this person, for no other reason than because I never have before, and I would just like to try it once. I have no control over the other player, so nothing is "preset," but I would surely put in my first message to them, "Hey, we have played in several games together, and have always been enemies. Let's be allies in this one?" In honesty, it would be my most motivating factor, even over position. The game is random countries, so I have no idea where we will lie.

Should I withdraw from the game before it starts? Should I never play with this player again? Because it will always be in my head.
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Re: House Rules - What is Cheating?

Postby Waterice man » 19 Jun 2010, 22:35

That player is probably kpd007. I personally have played 40% of my games with him, and I expect most people have a similar proportion.
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Re: House Rules - What is Cheating?

Postby rick.leeds » 20 Jun 2010, 00:49

I'd not have too big a problem with anything you've said, diospill. The fact is, players will play for any outcome they like. The Rules on metagaming are there to prevent team play and prevent cross-game arrangements, principally. Looking for a game-winning alliance is what many people look for when entering a game... as long as it isn't based on cross-game alliances with the same player(s) it isn't a problem. As for the pre-game thinking, it would be borderline metagaming, simply because you are taking the route of what has - or in his case hasn't - happened in past games is influencing what you're thinking of doing in this game. You're also thinking about building an alliance with someone BEFORE the game starts, and that is potentially excluding other players. However, you've said that it is dependent on country assignments, so that means you haven't set this in stone.
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Re: House Rules - What is Cheating?

Postby diospill » 20 Jun 2010, 16:17

rick.leeds wrote: However, you've said that it is dependent on country assignments, so that means you haven't set this in stone.


No, I said that my desire to work with this person supersedes position. It is random positions, so I don't know where we will lie, but no matter where we lie, I would want to form an alliance with them. The only thing really is that since we've never communicated, and I like a lot of communication in an ally, I have no way of knowing if we'll "click." If we don't, then I wouldn't be able to follow through with an alliance. I don't know this person at all, for all I know they wouldn't respond to my message. There are many things which could still prevent this alliance from happening.

What's got me worried is that I do have this pre-game desire to make an attempt to work with this person, as you said, simply because of prior games.

But the reason I'm asking, (I mean, I'm sure no one would have suspected me of meta-gaming, and I could have kept my mouth shut,) is I'm wondering; shouldn't this be a part of what this site is? I want to get to meet people. I want this to be a game foremost, but a social event 2nd. Should the rules surrounding this type of metagaming be a little more lax?
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Re: House Rules - What is Cheating?

Postby rick.leeds » 20 Jun 2010, 21:27

No. If you go into a game with a decision to ally with a player, it's unfair on other players in the game. What you're saying, in effect, is that you want to have an alliance with her/him and any other alliance would be second best. That means others are at a disadvantage before the game starts. Definitely a "not legal" in ranked games.

As for socialising, I've been able to swap banter, insults, stories, etc without allying with players; you don't need to ally with someone. And the main social aspect of the site has to be through the Forum.
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Re: House Rules - What is Cheating?

Postby winner24211 » 21 Jun 2010, 03:19

Waterice man wrote:That player is probably kpd007. I personally have played 40% of my games with him, and I expect most people have a similar proportion.


i've only been in two with him because i am tryign to avoid his non communication
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Re: House Rules - What is Cheating?

Postby TheSavage » 01 Jul 2010, 23:41

ok so I have a question, I have been accused of cheating in the past, and was happy to receive both a private message and an e-mail from a Moderator. But my question is, am I guaranteed to get a message and an e-mail before any action is taken? Because my biggest fear would be to try to log on to playdiplomacy because I was accused of cheating and had no chance to explain or defend myself. I looked through the rules and didnt see any difinitive ways that punishment is decided, which makes sense because things tend to vary from case to case. But I just would like to know that I definitely have a chance to defend myself or explain the situation before any action is taken.
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